Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Witnesses: Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram? - by Sam Flynn 44 minutes ago.
Maybrick, James: Acquiring A Victorian Diary - by rjpalmer 2 hours ago.
Maybrick, James: Acquiring A Victorian Diary - by rjpalmer 2 hours ago.
Witnesses: Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram? - by Hunter 2 hours ago.
Conferences and Meetings: American Jack the Ripper - True Crime Conference, Baltimore, April 7-8, 2018 - by ChrisGeorge 2 hours ago.
Witnesses: Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram? - by Sam Flynn 2 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - (13 posts)
Witnesses: Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram? - (10 posts)
Elizabeth Stride: Elizabeth's murder and the double event - (2 posts)
Maybrick, James: Acquiring A Victorian Diary - (2 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Was Ernest Dowson Jack the Ripper? - (2 posts)
Tumblety, Francis: Tumblety - Hermaphrodite. - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #911  
Old 10-19-2017, 11:25 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,780
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Personally, I would find it ridiculous, absurd and mind-boggling for anyone to deny that a physician who had personally examined the injuries would be in a far better position to draw conclusions about their origins than someone who had merely read a report.
Well, Gary, this is where I will get off the train.

I will not join in the brawl between you and Abby, because I find it disheartening. I was checking a few things on Tait yesterday, and so I have a few more remarks to add to this discussion, and then I will not take part of it anymore. There are also a few things I want to say on account of the developments of the discussion.

For my own part, I have not said that a physician who has personally examined the injuries of a victim will not be in a better position to draw conclusions from them than somebody who has merely read a report. And I dont think anybody alse has said that either, since it would be a foolish thing to say.

The discussion about this, however, also involved the possibility that the someboy mentioned, in this case Tait, could have actually discussed the cases with one or more of the medicos who wrote the reports.

It also applies that Tait was not the everyday "somebody" - he was an expert on surgery of the female abdomen, and so he would be better suited than most to follow a report and/or discussion revolving around this area.

None of all of this would, of course, put him on par with the examining medico. But I was reasoning that it may make him suited enough to draw viable conclusions of his own, if he had had the kind of information I am suggesting.

It must be kept in mind that since we do not know what detail/s it was that made him think that a London butcher was involved, we cannot tell what level of information was required for him to make that call. We cannot even exclude the possibility that there was something in the newspaper articles that lay behind it, although one would think that somebody else would pick up on it in such a case. But the bottom line is that we dont know.

The details I dug up yesterday were from the Sheffield & Rotherham Independent of September 21:st 1889. It adds a few bits to the interview with Tait:

1. "The cuts are made in a fashion peculiar to the London butcher".

2. "I have not seen the remains in any of the cases, but of this I am certain, the criminal is a butcher, and a London butcher."

So we can now say with certainty that Tait never saw the bodies. And we can say that he is even more adamant here that there was something in the cutting he claimed was peculiar to a London butcher.

And that is all I am going to say about Lawson Tait for now. He either grabbed what he said out of thin air or he did not. For now, thats end of story for me, and I leave you gentlemen to it.

Last edited by Fisherman : 10-19-2017 at 11:28 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #912  
Old 10-20-2017, 04:48 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 8,871
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
So we can now say with certainty that Tait never saw the bodies.
Thanks for confirming that.
Quote:
And we can say that he is even more adamant here that there was something in the cutting he claimed was peculiar to a London butcher.
I simply think Tait had got it into his bonce that the murderer was a butcher, and tried to bolster the credibility of his theory by making groundless assertions about how the knives/saws were used (how could he possibly have known such low-level details?), and false facts about how the murders reflected "regional" styles of butchery.

Tait was a man of strong opinions, not all of them particularly sensible - for example, he was a vocal critic of antiseptics (preferring simply to use soapy water) and he didn't believe in the germ theory of disease. He thought that spiritualism was a form of mental illness (kudos there ) but, on the other hand, he seems to have been tolerant of such dubious practices as homeopathy and hydrotherapy.

A gifted man certainly, but not a genius, and not infallible.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Gtzendmmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #913  
Old 10-20-2017, 05:27 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 2,957
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Thanks Debs

Interesting ideas. But I guess I’m struggling with the idea that a respected doctor would engage in satire in a paper, and if he didn’t wouldn’t it at least labeled as such or in special section at least??

It is an odd piece though, to say the least.
No worries, Abby. Thanks for reading my idea.
It does seem odd to me that Lawson Tait was commenting on the wounds showing a London butcher at exactly (almost to the day?) the same time the press were reporting that a specific surgeon's signature operating style had been recognised on the bodies at the time of Pinchin Street.
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #914  
Old 10-20-2017, 05:50 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 2,957
Default

Here's one of the press reports. Tait's observations could almost be a rebuttal of this. Tait sees the work of a London Butcher in the cuts at exactly the same time an unnamed source sees the work of a London Surgeon.


A Clew to Jack the Ripper
By Cable to the News and Observer.
LONDON, Sept. 17
The inquest in the case of the woman whose headless body was discovered in the Whitechapel district recently, was conducted with closed doors, and extraordinary precautionsare taken to prevent the medical testimony in the case being made public. The rumour is afloat, but cannot be traced to an authorative source, that one of the doctors has pointed out that the fiend who committed the murder bears a remarkable resemblance in certain features to peculiarities which have frequently been noted by the profession in the work of a well-known London surgeon, a man of the highest standing in his profession but exceedingly eccentric. The police maintain a discreet silence and refuse to either deny or verify the rumor. They appear to be active, however, and their conduct indicates that they have a clew of some sort.
News and Observer (Raleigh, NC, United States), Wednesday, September 18, 1889
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #915  
Old 10-20-2017, 06:19 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,271
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
Here's one of the press reports. Tait's observations could almost be a rebuttal of this. Tait sees the work of a London Butcher in the cuts at exactly the same time an unnamed source sees the work of a London Surgeon.


A Clew to Jack the Ripper
By Cable to the News and Observer.
LONDON, Sept. 17
The inquest in the case of the woman whose headless body was discovered in the Whitechapel district recently, was conducted with closed doors, and extraordinary precautionsare taken to prevent the medical testimony in the case being made public. The rumour is afloat, but cannot be traced to an authorative source, that one of the doctors has pointed out that the fiend who committed the murder bears a remarkable resemblance in certain features to peculiarities which have frequently been noted by the profession in the work of a well-known London surgeon, a man of the highest standing in his profession but exceedingly eccentric. The police maintain a discreet silence and refuse to either deny or verify the rumor. They appear to be active, however, and their conduct indicates that they have a clew of some sort.
News and Observer (Raleigh, NC, United States), Wednesday, September 18, 1889
Thanks for posting!!
Was Lawson Tait the Torsoripper!?! ; )
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #916  
Old 10-20-2017, 06:37 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 8,871
Default

I know that the article Debs just posted doesn't refer to Tait, but it reminds me of one thing I'd previously noticed: Why do the reports of Tait's musings mostly - solely? - appear in provincial and/or American newspapers?
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Gtzendmmerung, 1888)

Last edited by Sam Flynn : 10-20-2017 at 06:40 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #917  
Old 10-20-2017, 06:48 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 2,957
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I know that the article Debs just posted doesn't refer to Tait, but it reminds me of one thing I'd previously noticed: Why do the reports of Tait's musings mostly - solely? - appear in provincial and/or American newspapers?
I don't think they do, Gareth. Lawson's interview, circulated by the Central News Agency, was conducted by a Pall Mall Gazette reporter.

Are we certain Tait is linking all the Whitechapel murders with Battersea and Chelsea, or just the Pinchin Street(classed as Whitechapel), Battersea and Chelsea torso cases?

This seems to be some sort of answer to a suggestion in the US press mainly, that a London surgeon was responsible for the murders (torsos?) and his work had been recognised.

Wasn't Forbes Winslow also accusing a surgeon around Sept 1889? {perhaps he is also in and amongst this somewhere?
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #918  
Old 10-20-2017, 06:55 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,271
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
I don't think they do, Gareth. Lawson's interview, circulated by the Central News Agency, was conducted by a Pall Mall Gazette reporter.

Are we certain Tait is linking all the Whitechapel murders with Battersea and Chelsea, or just the Pinchin Street(classed as Whitechapel), Battersea and Chelsea torso cases?

This seems to be some sort of answer to a suggestion in the US press mainly, that a London surgeon was responsible for the murders (torsos?) and his work had been recognised.

Wasn't Forbes Winslow also accusing a surgeon around Sept 1889? {perhaps he is also in and amongst this somewhere?
Hi again Sam and Debs
Interesting stuff.

But Tait didn't live in London did he?
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #919  
Old 10-20-2017, 07:01 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 2,957
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Thanks for posting!!
Was Lawson Tait the Torsoripper!?! ; )
I found the reference I was thinking of earlier in connection with Tait and the Ripper. It was some correspondence in defence of a particular treatment or surgery (gynaecological) and a Dr Sutton writing in a medical journal that the only people who didn't approve of this new type of treatment was Lawson Tait and Jack the Ripper. I'm guessing the discussion was over a new treatment versus old style removal of the uterus..

Anyway. I still think Tait was disputing the Sept 89 rumours that the torso killer was a skilled London surgeon, either with tongue in cheek or brazenly bull$hitting.
I have mentioned before that I wondered if Hebbert wrote about the skills of a a butcher, slaughterer or hunter was because he was deliberately pointing things away from his own profession. Not because he saw anything showing a skill at surgery, but just to direct away from anyone who might claim that.
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #920  
Old 10-20-2017, 07:01 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 2,957
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi again Sam and Debs
Interesting stuff.

But Tait didn't live in London did he?
I'm not with you, Abby.
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.