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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #791  
Old 10-18-2017, 04:50 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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As an addition, when there is a large number of homicides committed in an area, significantly raising the number or such events over the normal level, the prudent question to answer for the police is whether these deeds have any common factors, and so can have been committed by the same person.
If there are such commonalities, then the assumption must be that we are indeed dealing with just the one killer, instead of many killers.
The more commonalities, the greater the chance of a single killer, the less commonalities, the smaller that chance is.
Type of weapon used, MO, signature and area of offending will be the more important factors in establishing how many killers lie behind the raised homicide level.
In our case, the type of weapon used is cutting weapons, the MO cannot be fully established but seemingly involves taking prostitutes to secluded places and kill them quickly, after which post-mortem mutilations are added, the signature seems to be post-mortem mutilation and the areaa of offending can only be established for the Ripper series, whereas it remains unknown which location was used in the Torso series.

To add to this, there are also examples of the same very rare cutting of abdominal flaps in both series.

The only resonable thing to do is to work from the presumption that one killer only lies behind all of these killings.

Traditional Ripperology has done all of this completely backwards, and has therefore severely hampered the development of the investigation and research into the murders for more than a century.
The murder of Alice McKenzie sandwiched between the two Torsos found in 1889 is what does it for me. It's one thing to have several murders in the same city but that sort of overlap has to be more than a coincidence.
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  #792  
Old 10-18-2017, 05:00 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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The murder of Alice McKenzie sandwiched between the two Torsos found in 1889 is what does it for me. It's one thing to have several murders in the same city but that sort of overlap has to be more than a coincidence.
No, it doesn't. There are many people who don't ascribe McKenzie's murder to the Ripper because of differences of detail between what happened to her and the "canonical" JTR evisceration victims, and there are even greater dissimilarities between McKenzie and the torso cases.

Never mind the timings, never mind the overlaps, just look at what actually happened to her. Other murder series have overlapped with one another, and/or have coincided with "singleton" murders, without the same perpetrators being involved.
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  #793  
Old 10-18-2017, 05:10 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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No, it doesn't. There are many people who don't ascribe McKenzie's murder to the Ripper because of differences of detail between what happened to her and the "canonical" JTR evisceration victims, and there are even greater dissimilarities between McKenzie and the torso cases.

Never mind the timings, never mind the overlaps, just look at what actually happened to her. Other murder series have overlapped with one another, and/or have coincided with "singleton" murders, without the same perpetrators being involved.
There are enough signature elements of McKenzie's murder to attribute it to the Ripper, even if it's far from conclusive. There were no known Torso cases since Sept 1888 and no known Ripper cases since Nov the same year. All of a sudden, within the space of three months we have two more Torso cases and a Ripper-esque murder? But there's no correlation between the two?
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  #794  
Old 10-18-2017, 05:22 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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All of a sudden, within the space of three months we have two more Torso cases and a Ripper-esque murder? But there's no correlation between the two?
I don't even read much significance into the coincidence of Eddowes and Stride being killed on the same night, slap bang in the middle of the Autumn of Terror, so I'm unlikely to be swayed by McKenzie and the very, very different torso series.
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  #795  
Old 10-18-2017, 05:37 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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There are enough signature elements of McKenzie's murder to attribute it to the Ripper, even if it's far from conclusive. There were no known Torso cases since Sept 1888 and no known Ripper cases since Nov the same year. All of a sudden, within the space of three months we have two more Torso cases and a Ripper-esque murder? But there's no correlation between the two?
yup-bingo Harry.
add to that that both series end after pinchin and McKenzie. both series end at the same time.
another coincidence?
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  #796  
Old 10-18-2017, 06:03 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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I don't even read much significance into the coincidence of Eddowes and Stride being killed on the same night, slap bang in the middle of the Autumn of Terror, so I'm unlikely to be swayed by McKenzie and the very, very different torso series.
Fair enough, Sam. I've never doubted the Double Event to be honest with ya. Two women having their throats slashed within a short walk of each other during the height of the Ripper scare is a no-brainer for me. Stranger things have happened, sure, but why eschew the obvious?

I would also contend that these weren't extremely different murders. In both cases the victims were mutilated, and that in itself is a rare paraphilia. It's not exactly a stretch that the killer's circumstances dictated the nature of his crimes. The Ripper series may have occurred more on the spur of the moment, or when the killer did not have access to his kill-house. He couldn't exactly take the Torso victims and dump them in the street a la Ripper, therefore they were dismembered and discarded, almost ritualistically it would seem.

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yup-bingo Harry.
add to that that both series end after pinchin and McKenzie. both series end at the same time.
another coincidence?
Yes, that's another coincidence to add to the list. In fact, for those who doubt McKenzie (and I've been one of them) it's an even greater coincidence that a copycat struck around the same time the Torsos re-emerged.
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  #797  
Old 10-18-2017, 06:39 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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Why would the right leg of Jackson be severed in two parts whereas the left was not?.... Why would Jackson right hand be taken off when the left was not?
Where did you get these details from, Fish? I'm pretty sure both Jackson's hands were still attached to her arms, according to ASoLM. Likewise, the legs were both separated at the knee - are you saying one leg wasn't separated at all, or in more than one place?
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  #798  
Old 10-18-2017, 07:02 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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1. The use of a saw would be be a much quicker way of dismembering limbs. Perhaps the dismemberer realised this after first using a knife. Also was the use of a saw noted in any of the other torsos, from memory I dont think it was.

Don´t use your memory, Trevor, use the facts - a sharp knife and a fine-toothed saw was employed in all of the torso cases, according to the medicos.
If the killer inititally tried the knife on the 1873 victim, disarticulating the limbs very neatly, and then arrived at the conclusion that a saw is more efficient, would you not say that it was strange that he afterwards abandoned the idea of sawing the bones off, and went back to disarticulation...?

2. The fact that these limbs were found at different locations might suggest that the person disposing of these was not able to dispose of them all at the same time because of the number of packages there were, and may well have varied the locations where they were actually disposed of.

It might suggest that he had a bet with his granny that he would use these places for dumping the parts. It "might" suggest a whole lot. But the fact of the matter is that a man pressed for time and desperate to dump a torso, would NOT find his way down to the deepest cellar vaults of the New Scotland Yard to do so, scaling walls and subjecting himself to danger in the process.

3. You keep suggesting that JTR and the Torsos were the work of the same hand and you seek to heavily rely on the 1873 Torso. Thats 15 years before the Ripper murders. So why do we not have Ripper like murders in that same time frame? I think you need to forget the 1873 Torso.

Dahmer was inactive for nine years after his first murder, until he started killing again. Shall we forget about his first victim, Trevor? And in Dahmers case, we KNOW what he did during those nine years. How do we know that the Ripper/Torso killer did NOT kill during this time?

It is unbelievable to think that every torso or body part fished out of the thames got there as a result of a murder being committed.

Yes, just as it was unbelievable that every body fished out of the Green River during the eighties, dozens of them, would be a murder victim. It´s not statistically fair, is it?

By the way, Trevor, are you not the one who says it is time to break up the old ways in Ripperology? I am doing just that, and here you are, speaking for returning to the oldschool thinking...?
I am applying a common sense approach based on what facts and evidence is available.

As to the Green River Killer all the bodies fished out of the river were proved to have been murdered. Something you cannot prove with this theory of yours, that all the torsos were murdered, and no matter how you huff and puff until you can prove that your theory is flawed.

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  #799  
Old 10-18-2017, 07:21 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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No, it doesn't. There are many people who don't ascribe McKenzie's murder to the Ripper because of differences of detail between what happened to her and the "canonical" JTR evisceration victims, and there are even greater dissimilarities between McKenzie and the torso cases.
Never mind the timings, never mind the overlaps, just look at what actually happened to her. Other murder series have overlapped with one another, and/or have coincided with "singleton" murders, without the same perpetrators being involved.
I would think the majority do not include her, and I don't recall one contemporary investigator including her in his own head count.

And I like your position on the "Double Event".. the fact that a woman has her throat slit once in an area, and on a night, where an assumed serial mutilator was supposedly operating doesn't immediately suggest same killer.

I think its rather the opposite of whats being suggested here, that we have every reason to discount the "single madman" in the area using the Torso murders as a rationale. Its proof enough for me that more than just Jack the Ripper killed women in the immediate area during that Fall. Its just that Jack did it a specific way, and in public.
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  #800  
Old 10-18-2017, 08:40 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
The murder of Alice McKenzie sandwiched between the two Torsos found in 1889 is what does it for me. It's one thing to have several murders in the same city but that sort of overlap has to be more than a coincidence.
I tend to think McKenzie is a Ripper victim, and if that is true, then it seems like both series are winding down, sort of tapering off in a way, together. The Pinchin Street torso was not eviscerated, only opened up, and there are no parts found floating in the Thames. It is almost as if the killer had run out of wind.

But there´s always that "if", isn´t there?
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