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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Annie Chapman

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  #11  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:58 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Sorry Michael I disagree with your comparison of Chapman and Eddowes, the degree of skill shown is a subjective opinion of a Doctor in 1888.

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Steve
You mean you disagree with the opinion of the physician who saw more victims in death than any other, not me Steve. Its well documented that Phillips didn't see the same hand at work with Liz, and had some issues with Kate.
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  #12  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:00 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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An opinion, moreover, which has become clouded by a journalist in The Lancet who penned memorable soundbites ("obviously the work was that of an expert" who "secured the pelvic organs with one sweep of the knife") which have been dubiously attributed to Dr Phillips ever since.

I see about the same level of skill, or lack thereof, in both the Chapman and Eddowes murders. Chapman had her uterus removed below the cervix, but her bladder was divided 66:33; Eddowes' uterus was removed above the cervix, but at least the killer managed to leave her bladder intact. Both women had cuts to the colon. Personally, I'd call it a draw.
How about a cut that traces around a navel...see any crude cutting like that with Annie Sam? How about a nose cut that may have accidentally nicked her cheeks? How about a section of severed colon that likely left his hands smeared with feces? And what about the purpose of these cuts...see any useless acts in the Chapman murder.
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:18 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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Its not about matching victims by what was done, its how it was done and why it was done.
And why was it done?
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:31 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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How about a cut that traces around a navel...see any crude cutting like that with Annie Sam?
"Dr. Phillips ... said the abdominal wall had been removed in three parts - two from the anterior part. There was a greater portion of skin removed on the right side than on the left. On adjusting these three flaps it was evident that a portion surrounding and constituting the navel was wanting. The womb itself and two thirds of the bladder were absent from the body and could nowhere be traced. It was apparent that these absent portions, together with the division of the large intestine, were the result of the same incising cut" Morning Advertiser, 20th September 1888

In other words, crude and messy. With the added bonus that the flesh surrounding the navel had been carved out by a single incision, and that the colon had been accidentally cut.
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How about a nose cut that may have accidentally nicked her cheeks?
It either didn't occur to him, or he simply didn't get round to mutilating Annie's face. Who knows what might have happened if he had?
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Last edited by Sam Flynn : 10-12-2017 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 10-12-2017, 01:22 PM
Pontius2000 Pontius2000 is offline
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Don't know where you figure that a poor tenant's "influence" would have anything to do with someone being in arrears. I have personal experience with slumlords and poor tenants and it's nothing unusual for tenants to be many months in arrears. And that's in a city the size of Myrtle Beach. Can't imagine how much more common it would be in the largest city in the world.

So you agree with Bagster Phillips opinion at face value, but not Abberline's? Because Abberline believed Hutchinson. But be that as it may, Kelly was a known prostitute, was out drinking, up in the wee hours, found nearly nude. And Barnett had also apparently apologized to her that he had no money. So that's 2 independent witnesses saying she needed money. So I see no reason to believe she wasn't soliciting.

Whether Kelly's hand wounds were defensive or not is complete speculation. But of all the C5, she would be the most likely to have defensive wounds since the doctors generally agreed the other 4 were choked from behind and laid down before having the throats cut. Kelly was already lying down, probably conscious, so she may well have struggled. This doesn't indicate a different killer, it simply indicates different circumstances (i.e., she wasn't standing up when the attack began)

What info do you have that Chapman and Eddowes were on their backs when their throats were cut? If this were so, the blood would likely have fished all over the killer as well as the victims fronts. IIRC, Chapman's face was not covered with blood, and Eddowes only from the facial wounds. All indications are that they were both killed on or towards their left sides, just like Nichols and Stride.

Nichols was cut under the breast bone on one side down to the pelvis, around, and back up the other side. This indicates his intent was to open up her abdomen completely. Chapman was disembowelled and uterus removed, so this was not a small wound, or even a 1 foot wound. It would take a large wound to access both the intestines and the uterus. Eddowes was opened by a very large wound, evidenced by the photos and the description that she was completely laid open. And likewise, Kelly was completely laid open, with the abdominal walls completely removed in panels.

As for the facial wounds and other things like breast removal, denudement, etc, it's very well documented that serial killers' crimes will sometimes change slightly as their sick fantasies change. Read the books by former FBI agent Robert Ressler for examples of this. You seem to be under the impression that all murders by one killer will be carbon copies of each other. That's simply not the case. But all of the C5 certainly do share enough similarities with each other to suggest they were all killed by the same person. Do you not think Chapman, or any of the others, would have been "taken apart" if he'd had the same level of privacy that he'd had with Kelly?

Sorry, but there are no murders within the C5 that are "fundamentally unlike" the others. For that matter, in the scope of serial killers, it could be argued that several of the non-canonicals such as Smith, Tabram, and McKenzie would also not be "fundamentally unlike" the C5
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Old 10-12-2017, 02:16 PM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
You mean you disagree with the opinion of the physician who saw more victims in death than any other, not me Steve. Its well documented that Phillips didn't see the same hand at work with Liz, and had some issues with Kate.
It's still a subjective opinion Michael.

With regards to Stride I am not convinced myself, but a possible disrupted attack is hardly a good sample for a Doctor to use.


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