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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Letters and Communications > Goulston Street Graffito

View Poll Results: Did Jack write the GSG?
YES 74 38.34%
NO 119 61.66%
Voters: 193. You may not vote on this poll

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  #2021  
Old 09-22-2017, 11:38 PM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Originally Posted by DirectorDave View Post
I don't think he needed to get rid of the apron in the same way he would have done with his clean up accoutrement after the Stride killing.

With the Stride killing the alarm was up almost immediately, the hunt was on and soon the police would be heading in that direction.

The Eddowes killing was done without disturbance in a secluded corner that may not be discovered for some time, there was a lot less urgency after the second killing, he was more confident of escape...after all the police attention was on the other side of town because 'ol leather apron had killed again.
If the killer was disturbed in Mitre Sq by Pc Harvey coming down Church Passage, and I believe he was then your suggestion is not valid.

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  #2022  
Old 09-22-2017, 11:46 PM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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There was an officer posted at the door, you brought this up years ago and you were shown press cuttings which described the police guard at the mortuary.

What "everyday working" are you talking about? With Nichols & Chapman, there was no mortuary, it was a shed, and in a deplorable condition.
There was no medical staff "coming and going", so no-one to pilfer with the corpse.
Whatever was used as a mortuary is irrelevant.The fact is, it was used as a mortuary, it wasn't just opened as a mortuary just to accommodate Chapmans body.

So yes there would have been medical staff coming and going.

The officer was there to stop the press and public from gaining access

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  #2023  
Old 09-22-2017, 11:49 PM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
The proposed route, is in blue.



That seems an extra ordinary long journey for someone just wiping his hands.




On your point 2., I doubt he still carried the organs when he reached Goulston Street, he likely had already dropped them off somewhere. Then returned to discard the apron for some reason.
What a ridiculous suggestion

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  #2024  
Old 09-22-2017, 11:52 PM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Well, before PC Long took the piece to Commercial St., he says he had heard of another murder in the City.
So, as his search of the premises in Goulston st. turned up nothing, it is reasonable that he might speculate this piece of bloodstained rag was connected to one of the two murders he had heard of that night.
He did the right thing.

We don't know where Phillips was at this time, but it is reasonable that the Inspector on duty at Commercial St. would contact Phillips to see if this rag was connected to the Berner St. murder.
We don't know what the timeline is for these events. We don't know what time the GS piece finally arrived at Golden Lane mortuary, but it could have been taken to St. George's mortuary first, by Phillips, to see if it matched Stride's clothing.
Then Phillips would proceed to Golden Lane with the bloodstained piece.

Anything particularly odd about that to you?
Phillips was handed the GS piece at Leman St police station.

He did not take it to the mortuary at Golden Lane till the following day when it was then matched with the piece at the mortuary.

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  #2025  
Old 09-23-2017, 12:22 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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That seems an extra ordinary long journey for someone just wiping his hands.
.
It's a three or four minute trot. And it's not so much a matter of his wiping his hands as he went, but that he needed somewhere safe where he COULD wipe his hands. The Goulston Street doorway was an ideal place to do so. Far enough away from the action, but not so far away that he'd risk being out on the streets for long.
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Last edited by Sam Flynn : 09-23-2017 at 12:34 AM.
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  #2026  
Old 09-23-2017, 12:26 AM
etenguy etenguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
The proposed route, is in blue.



That seems an extra ordinary long journey for someone just wiping his hands.




On your point 2., I doubt he still carried the organs when he reached Goulston Street, he likely had already dropped them off somewhere. Then returned to discard the apron for some reason.
Sam Flynn suggests the distance is a six minute walk or so, quicker if running, I guess it partly depends on whether he was running - though a running man might attract attention. It took me about ten minutes to do that walk, but I was strolling and maybe didn't take the most direct route.

I wish we had more detail about the amount of faeces on the apron. The greater the amount, the greater the evidence he used it to clean up. The evidence we have concentrates on the blood, 'as if a knife had been wiped' and doesn't mention the faeces amount or pattern. This leads me to infer the amount of faeces was small - which if true, undermines the need to take the apron piece to clean up.

I think it unlikely he would take the organs only to discard them a few metres away - so I assume you mean he either hid them to collect them later, or took them home before coming back out to discard the rag. The latter seems unusual behaviour in the context of a police presence - unless it was to leave an authenticated message. Certainly the timings support a gap between the murder and discarding the rag - but maybe PC Long did just miss it earlier.
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  #2027  
Old 09-23-2017, 12:36 AM
etenguy etenguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
What a ridiculous suggestion

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It is not ridiculous, Trevor, but perhaps needs more context to better understand the potential events of that night.

It is quite possible, and plausible, that he was so hyped up after two murders and going to town on Eddowes, and angered by being disturbed during the murder of Stride, that once home he worked himself up to the point where he needed to go and leave a message, authenticated by the rag. I don't state that this is what happened nor do I state that this is the most likely scenario - but it is possible, plausible and certainly not ridiculous.
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  #2028  
Old 09-23-2017, 01:44 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
It's a three or four minute trot. And it's not so much a matter of his wiping his hands as he went, but that he needed somewhere safe where he COULD wipe his hands. The Goulston Street doorway was an ideal place to do so. Far enough away from the action, but not so far away that he'd risk being out on the streets for long.
At that time of the morning he could have stopped and wiped his hands anywhere, and discard the apron piece anywhere. As to ideal places they would have been in abundance long before he ever got to GS.

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  #2029  
Old 09-23-2017, 01:45 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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I wish we had more detail about the amount of faeces on the apron. The greater the amount, the greater the evidence he used it to clean up. The evidence we have concentrates on the blood, 'as if a knife had been wiped' and doesn't mention the faeces amount or pattern. This leads me to infer the amount of faeces was small - which if true, undermines the need to take the apron piece to clean up.
I wish we had more detail about the apron as well. However, we do have a lot of detail about the state of Eddowes' corpse, specifically that the extruded bowels were smeared over with fæcal matter - smeared being the operative word. Stuff doesn't get smeared unless something does the smearing, and what else could have been the "smearing agent" but one or more of the killer's hands? I'd suggest that the killer, having dirtied his hand(s) when he excised the colon, tried to wipe off as much as he could on the glutinous surface of the extruded bowels, but - having only partially succeeded in doing so - decided that he'd need more time, and a better method, for removing the contamination. Hence, he cut off a piece of cloth and sought somewhere comparatively secluded nearby to scrub up more thoroughly before venturing further.
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Last edited by Sam Flynn : 09-23-2017 at 01:51 AM.
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  #2030  
Old 09-23-2017, 01:46 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Originally Posted by etenguy View Post
It is not ridiculous, Trevor, but perhaps needs more context to better understand the potential events of that night.

It is quite possible, and plausible, that he was so hyped up after two murders and going to town on Eddowes, and angered by being disturbed during the murder of Stride, that once home he worked himself up to the point where he needed to go and leave a message, authenticated by the rag. I don't state that this is what happened nor do I state that this is the most likely scenario - but it is possible, plausible and certainly not ridiculous.
But your theory falls apart if he didn't kill Stride, and there are many including myself who don't believe he did kill her.

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