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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Annie Chapman

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  #31  
Old 09-22-2017, 12:33 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post

Incidentally, if the killer needed something in which to smuggle organs, it's inherently unlikely that he'd have chosen a thick woollen scarf, when the neckerchief - or any number of other pieces of less bulky cloth about Annie's person - would have better served such a purpose.
That would involved trying to untie a knot, and possibly that neckerchief was not large enough anyway.
A loose scarf is the more likely of the two to remove. The next choice might have been to slice a portion off her dress, or clothing.
By the way, wool does not have to be bulky, it can be quite flat. Look at the woolen tunics worn by the regular soldiers.
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  #32  
Old 09-22-2017, 12:48 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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That would involved trying to untie a knot, and possibly that neckerchief was not large enough anyway.
It was big enough to fit over a scarf, apparently. Besides, why did he need to worry about trying to untie a knot, when he had an extremely sharp knife at his disposal?
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  #33  
Old 09-23-2017, 06:10 AM
curious curious is offline
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And my point about the giraffe's neck still applies: i.e. Donovan said the scarf was under the neckerchief, and I think he meant that literally.
Hi,
I'm not sure I'm "seeing" or envisioning what you are suggesting.

What if one felt better against the skin than the other and the underneath one was worn to make the other more comfortable?

curious

Last edited by curious : 09-23-2017 at 06:12 AM.
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  #34  
Old 09-23-2017, 06:26 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Hi,
I'm not sure I'm "seeing" or envisioning what you are suggesting.
The report said that the scarf was worn "under" the neckerchief, which I took to mean that the scarf was literally "underneath" the neckerchief. Wickerman suggested that this could have meant that it was "lower down on the neck", i.e. with the scarf at one level, and the neckerchief at a higher level. Hence my reference to a "giraffe's neck" - i.e., Chapman's neck would have had to have been rather long to accommodate a scarf and a neckerchief arranged "in parallel" on the throat, so to speak.
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What if one felt better against the skin than the other and the underneath one was worn to make the other more comfortable?
Indeed, and that would fit in perfectly with the scarf being "under" the neckerchief as per the report, and in the way in which I read the report. Cheers!
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  #35  
Old 09-23-2017, 09:20 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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.....Indeed, and that would fit in perfectly with the scarf being "under" the neckerchief as per the report, and in the way in which I read the report. Cheers!
That is what I was saying.
The neckerchief was above the scarf (between the lower jaw and the scarf).
Wool can be itchy against the lower jaw, especially when turning your head side to side.
The neckerchief is worn above the woolen scarf, for comfort - not over the top of the scarf (as if to hold in place).
That was the difference, as I understood it.
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  #36  
Old 09-28-2017, 04:37 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Thanks for adding the transcript, Jon. Like in other press reports, Chandler isn't reading out a structured inventory, but revealing bits and pieces of information about Annie's clothing, largely in response to questions. Sadly, therefore, we can't take this list as definitive or complete; indeed, he doesn't even mention the neckerchief, which she know she had on.
Chandler seems to be running through a list of some sort. He is asked if there was a scuffle and in the reply he goes on to say that she wore a dark dress and two petticoats.!! He even mentions what she isn`t wearing.

You have to admit that if there was a woollen scarf around her neck, it would have been mentioned

I can`t think why the neckerchief isn`t mentioned by Chandler.
I believe Sgt Thick described Chapman`s clothing to Chandler, and she was undressed by the two nurses and her clothes put in the corner of the shed, leaving the neckerchief around her throat. Perhaps, this had something to do with Chandler`s list, in that he went thru her clothing when it was on the floor, and there was no neckerchief in this pile.

But, although it is pretty evident that the woolly scarf is missing, it`s not an ascertained fact. I have amended my notes accordingly.
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  #37  
Old 09-28-2017, 05:38 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Chandler seems to be running through a list of some sort.
It's quite probable, Jon, but the degree to which he adhered to any inventory is questionable, given the manner in which he seems to have responded:

"The outside jacket - a long black one, which came down to the knees - had bloodstains round the neck, both upon the inside and out, and two or three spots on the left arm. The jacket was hooked at the top, and buttoned down the front. By the appearance of the garment there did not seem to have been any struggle. A large pocket was worn under the skirt (attached by strings), which I produce. It was torn down the front and also at the side, and it was empty. Deceased wore a black skirt. There was a little blood on the outside. The two petticoats were stained very little; the two bodices were stained with blood round the neck, but they had not been damaged. There was no cut in the clothing at all. The boots were on the feet of deceased. They were old. No part of the clothing was torn. The stockings were not bloodstained." (Daily Telegraph)

That looks to me like a narrative, rather than someone reading out a dry list in sequence. If he was reading from such a list, he appears to have been flowering it up with various asides as he was going along.
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You have to admit that if there was a woollen scarf around her neck, it would have been mentioned
Only if what we have is a faithful, if "flowery", recitation of a complete inventory, and even then, it's possible that his eyes skipped an entry or two. If he was, as I suggest, "flowering it up with asides", a bit of eye-skipping wouldn't be surprising. (I've given a fair few presentations in my time, with bullet-numbered speaker's notes as a prompt. I tend not to follow a script and can sometimes go off on tangents. Many's the time I've missed a few bullet-points on such occasions, hopefully not to the detriment of my overall message )
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But, although it is pretty evident that the woolly scarf is missing, it`s not an ascertained fact. I have amended my notes accordingly.
Excellent, and precisely the kind of responsible approach I'd expect from you, Jon.
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  #38  
Old 09-28-2017, 06:15 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Only if what we have is a faithful, if "flowery", recitation of a complete inventory, and even then, it's possible that his eyes skipped an entry or two.
Of course, it's possible that the Telegraph skipped one or more nuggets of info. From what I can tell, this is the fullest account of Chandler's testimony in the press, and thank goodness we have it. However, the equivalent accounts in other papers - including the Times - are rather more terse, and even omit some of the details that the Telegraph preserved. Whether the Telegraph preserved them all, however, cannot be known for sure.
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  #39  
Old 09-29-2017, 02:36 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Interesting point....and one that brings to mind the torn and cut apron section from Kate. Is this possibly an indicator that in both cases something was taken from the victim to carry off the materials excised?
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  #40  
Old 09-29-2017, 03:08 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Interesting point....and one that brings to mind the torn and cut apron section from Kate. Is this possibly an indicator that in both cases something was taken from the victim to carry off the materials excised?
That's what some folks are suggesting. Whilst we don't know the precise size of the Goulston St apron piece, we can have a reasonable guess as to how big Annie's woollen scarf might have been. If it were a fairly typical scarf, it would surely be far too big to use as a "wrap" for a uterus, two-thirds of a bladder (hence a collapsed, empty bladder) and a piece of flesh surrounding the navel. There were plenty of other pieces of cloth about Annie's person - the neckerchief for one, the under-skirt pockets for another - that would have been rather more suitable to wrap the organs, if that had been the killer's purpose.
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