Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by Abby Normal 11 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by Sam Flynn 11 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by Abby Normal 23 minutes ago.
Goulston Street Graffito: The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL - by Michael W Richards 37 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by Fisherman 38 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by Michael W Richards 43 minutes ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - (67 posts)
Scene of the Crimes: Bucks Row Project - (1 posts)
Visual Media: New play about Jack the Ripper (Denver, CO) - (1 posts)
Goulston Street Graffito: The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Maybrick, James

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1491  
Old 09-21-2017, 09:26 AM
Mike J. G. Mike J. G. is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Aigburth, Liverpool, UK.
Posts: 546
Default

From that thread:

Live a little: explore Liverpool and its pubs, enjoy considering or discovering other options and expanding your mental horizons instead of settling, like a fly on the largest and smelliest cowpat, for the option that gives you instant gratification - the one that makes Jack a dull forger.

Anyone truly "living a little" and exploring Liverpool and its pubs, as I have done my whole life, would find it rather difficult to find evidence of any other pub bearing the name seen in the diary, with that unique spelling.

An excellent reply to that came from a Chris Phillips:

I think it's not so much a question of this being the only possible place of refreshment (after all, it's possible he could have been sharing a pint with Mrs Hammersmith in downtown Chicago), as that interpreting the "Poste House" as the "Poste House" is just the most straightforward and probable interpretation.

But of course, you don't believe in probability theory.


"Probability" is something that so many people tend to disregard.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1492  
Old 09-21-2017, 09:28 AM
John G John G is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,051
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike J. G. View Post
Reading that thread, I notice the same disingenuous error being handed out that the Old Post office Tavern was likely known as "the Poste House", when no such evidence exists.

This random man from Rigby's is said to have labelled that pub as bearing that name, which is entirely false.

It amazes me that there doesn't exist one iota of information to support this assumed name.
According to William Beadle, the Old Post Office Tavern became known as the Poste House in the 1960s. Is this correct?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1493  
Old 09-21-2017, 09:32 AM
Mike J. G. Mike J. G. is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Aigburth, Liverpool, UK.
Posts: 546
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John G View Post
According to William Beadle, the Old Post Office Tavern became known as the Poste House in the 1960s. Is this correct?
It was the Muck Midden, on Cumberland street, which eventually changed its name to the Poste House, and it went by some other names during the periods between.

The Old Post Office Tavern is on School lane, and so far as I'm aware, has never been known as the "Poste House".
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1494  
Old 09-21-2017, 09:34 AM
Mike J. G. Mike J. G. is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Aigburth, Liverpool, UK.
Posts: 546
Default

If just one person could offer me any kind of reference or small detail which proves that this was a common nickname for another pub, I'll happily concede it.

But if we're just going to pretend that this was a common nickname, then why not pretend that Barrett was a master forger? There's no limit to what we can pretend, but there's a difference between that and providing credible evidence to support something.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1495  
Old 09-21-2017, 09:38 AM
Mike J. G. Mike J. G. is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Aigburth, Liverpool, UK.
Posts: 546
Default

I love this post by a guy named John V. Omlor:

Question: Could a modern forger have meant "The Poste House" when he wrote "The Poste House?"

I feel sort of silly even asking it, but that's what it's come to around here, that's what has become necessary when dealing with this book and some of its readers.


It perfectly describes the sheer lunacy being displayed when people suppose that the writer meant another pub. He wrote the "Poste House" for a reason, he clearly meant the pub known as... Wait for it... The Poste House.

Another great post that echoes what I've been saying, by Chris Phillips:

I do think it's a good example of a statement in the diary having a clear and obvious interpretation that's fatal to the diary's authenticity - and so the Maybrickites ask us to believe a convoluted and far-from-obvious interpretation, just so that they can keep their faith in the diary alive.

The diary refers to taking refreshment at the "Poste House", with that spelling, and with those capital letters. The obvious interpretation is that he was referring to the pub of that name in Cumberland Street. (To confirm that that's a reasonable interpretation, if you put simply "Poste House" as a phrase into Google's worldwide search engine, the first two hits are pages in online pub guides related to the Poste House, Cumberland Street, Liverpool.)

As that pub wasn't there in 1888, the Maybrickites have to come up with another interpretation. They allege that "post house" would have been a very common way of referring to a coaching inn, and that therefore the diarist could have meant another pub. (I am a bit doubtful about this claim, as the "Post House" is not a very common name for a pub these days, which the claim suggests it should be - I can't remember ever drinking in a pub of that name, and Google confirms that's not just alcohol-induced amnesia.)

The Maybrickite claim ignores the spelling and the capitalisation for a start. And as far as I know, the Maybrickites have failed to come up with a single example (from newspapers, published local history, archive material, or whatever) of any other pub in Liverpool ever being known as the "post house".

To be honest, I think that's the least they can be expected to do, if they're pushing this as an alternative explanation of the statement in the diary. And then they could go on to explain the spelling and the capitalisation.

(It's fair to add that the Maybrickites invariably raise the phrase "poste haste" in the diary as an indication that the spelling - or misspelling - of "Poste" isn't significant. To my mind, that's a rather double-edged argument. It seems we are being asked to believe in a Victorian businessman who couldn't spell the word "post". Either that, or a rather illiterate forger who might have misspelled "post haste" on the model of the "Poste House" pub.

Chris Phillips


http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4922/12049.html

Last edited by Mike J. G. : 09-21-2017 at 09:43 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1496  
Old 09-21-2017, 09:39 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,398
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John G View Post
Thanks for that Joshua, it was something I was unaware of.
It was to do with a change in the licencing laws to encourage people to drink beer (instead of ruinous gin) - anyone could buy a licence and sell beer from their private house, which saw large numbers spring up in towns, usually small and not in prime corner locations. I'm sure there are exceptions, but the Poste House looks like a good example.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1497  
Old 09-21-2017, 09:52 AM
Mike J. G. Mike J. G. is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Aigburth, Liverpool, UK.
Posts: 546
Default

Caz and her apparently solid knowledge of local Liverpool pubs that nobody else who actually lives in Liverpool is aware of:

I excuse you all for not knowing too much about English pubs and their history, and the various names the regulars of those pubs have used over the years that have never actually appeared over the door.

Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1498  
Old 09-21-2017, 10:16 AM
John G John G is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,051
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike J. G. View Post
It was the Muck Midden, on Cumberland street, which eventually changed its name to the Poste House, and it went by some other names during the periods between.

The Old Post Office Tavern is on School lane, and so far as I'm aware, has never been known as the "Poste House".
Thanks Mike. I actually misread Beadle. What he actually said was that the main post office, built in 1899, was originally called The New Post Office Hotel and then, in the 1960s, The Poste House.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1499  
Old 09-21-2017, 10:45 AM
John G John G is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,051
Default

Of course, The Poste House in Cumberland Street, Liverpool, and known by that name since the 1960s, has an unusual and incorrect spelling of the word "post". However, rather than accept this as strong evidence of a modern forgery, diary enthusiasts choose to believe that privately educated James Maybrick was an illiterate fool, who couldn't even spell a simple word correctly.

Last edited by John G : 09-21-2017 at 11:01 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1500  
Old 09-21-2017, 11:00 AM
Mike J. G. Mike J. G. is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Aigburth, Liverpool, UK.
Posts: 546
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John G View Post
Of course, The Posts House in Cumberland Street, Liverpool, and known by that name since the 1960s, has an unusual and incorrect spelling of the word "post". However, rather than accept this as strong evidence of a modern forgery, diary enthusiasts choose to believe that privately educated James Maybrick was an illiterate fool, who couldn't even spell a simple word correctly.
This is the problem we face.

People make up details, such as Maybrick being an inferior speller, despite showing proper use of punctuation, something that tends to be more problematic for people with difficulty spelling more so than certain words, and they also attempt to invent new pubs with obscure nicknames.

You can't really have a proper discussion with someone who insists on making things up to explain errors.

Here, I'll make something up: Barrett wasn't really a boozer, he was just playing a role, he was actually an accomplished poet, but used a different name to write with.

It's easy to make up details.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.