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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Maybrick, James

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  #891  
Old 09-13-2017, 11:41 AM
Mike J. G. Mike J. G. is offline
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Originally Posted by Observer View Post
I would expect that Liverpool Central Library had an extensive true crime section shortly before the emergence of the Diary.
It did indeed, and still does, as does every other library here, including the famous Picton Reading Rooms, which are now a part of central library, and were once a valuable resource for any local historian or writer, including Whittington-Egan, who used it often when writing for his many books.

E.T.A.

I myself have been to central and have browsed the excellent old newspapers on file, and this, as I've mentioned previously, is where I inquired about the existence of another pub known as the Poste House, and found zilch, nada, naught. Even asking staff, who are more than helpful and very knowledgeable, turned up nothing. But if we're to believe Caz, the old Tavern in town was once known as the Poste House, it's just that there's literally no evidence of this anywhere in this city, but I'm told she had it on good word from a random man in a pub whose name she cannot provide.

Last edited by Mike J. G. : 09-13-2017 at 11:45 AM.
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  #892  
Old 09-13-2017, 11:44 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
So you would have no problem creating a document that could fool an ion migration test that indicates when the ink was applied to the paper Mike?
That very test was actually fooled when it was used to date the Mormon "salamander" letters, in which case it emerged that the forger had attempted to artificially age the documents in question. The net result was to throw the ion-migration test's theoretical accuracy of +/- 20 years out to +/- 40 years. That would, of course, not be enough of a discrepancy to allow a 1980s document to be mistaken for one produced in the 1880s, but I've yet to see any proof that other confounding factors (whether wilful tampering, type of paper or whatever) could not compromise the accuracy of the test still further. Ion-migration testing of ink was a comparatively new technique in the 1990s, and may well have been refined in the two decades since, but I am not convinced that it was entirely foolproof at the time the diary was first tested.
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  #893  
Old 09-13-2017, 11:45 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Originally Posted by Mike J. G. View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by this, seeing as I've already mentioned how a lot of Ripper literature seems to be promoted in such a way.

The subject here is the diary, and there's a new book on it, so my comment was pretty much entirely valid.

My cares are not vested in who believes what about which, my stance is that it's a hoax, and a recent one, and if anyone believes otherwise, then show me the money. I'm not seeing much in the way of "money" from anyone.
So Robert Smith has mentioned/reviewed the scientific provenance in his book and stated that there is zero evidence of forgery and that there is nothing to preclude the diary from originating in 1888/9 that is invalid because 'science can be fooled.' Why do we bother using science at all? I wonder if you would talk of science being fooled if a scientist had said that he could prove the diary a forgery?
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  #894  
Old 09-13-2017, 11:46 AM
Observer Observer is offline
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Originally Posted by Mike J. G. View Post
It did indeed, and still does, as does every other library here, including the famous Picton Reading Rooms, which are now a part of central library, and were once a valuable resource for any local historian or writer, including Whittington-Egan, who used it often when writing for his many books.
I've heard they do a good line in books devoted to obscure poetry too.

Last edited by Observer : 09-13-2017 at 11:50 AM.
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  #895  
Old 09-13-2017, 11:49 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
That very test was actually fooled when it was used to date the Mormon "salamander" letters, in which case it emerged that the forger had attempted to artificially age the documents in question. The net result was to throw the ion-migration test's theoretical accuracy of +/- 20 years out to +/- 40 years. That would, of course, not be enough of a discrepancy to allow a 1980s document to be mistaken for one produced in the 1880s, but I've yet to see any proof that other confounding factors (whether wilful tampering, type of paper or whatever) could not compromise the accuracy of the test still further. Ion-migration testing of ink was a comparatively new technique in the 1990s, and may well have been refined in the two decades since, but I am not convinced that it was entirely foolproof at the time the diary was first tested.
Thanks for that Sam. As you say, it's not a 100 year difference. The question is though, how difficult would it be? Would a man like Mike Barrett have been up to it?
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  #896  
Old 09-13-2017, 11:50 AM
Mike J. G. Mike J. G. is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
So Robert Smith has mentioned/reviewed the scientific provenance in his book and stated that there is zero evidence of forgery and that there is nothing to preclude the diary from originating in 1888/9 that is invalid because 'science can be fooled.' Why do we bother using science at all? I wonder if you would talk of science being fooled if a scientist had said that he could prove the diary a forgery?
Here's the thing, guys selling books tend to want to sell those books.

If Smith actually has concrete evidence that this diary is genuine, and by that I mean written by Maybrick in 1888/89, then it's ironic that the evidence is nowhere to be found.


I don't really understand the odd question "why bother using science at all?" and I sincerely hope you had your tongue planted firmly in your cheek when typing that.

Science is about testing things, looking for patterns that are repeatable using certain specific methods.

If Smith has indeed found evidence that completely refutes the hoax claims, then I'm intrigued to see how he got past the handwriting issue.

I'm assuming he's had the text studied and found to be that of Maybrick's, otherwise, he's not even discovered a brass fart.
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  #897  
Old 09-13-2017, 11:52 AM
Observer Observer is offline
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Originally Posted by Mike J. G. View Post

E.T.A.

I myself have been to central and have browsed the excellent old newspapers on file, and this, as I've mentioned previously, is where I inquired about the existence of another pub known as the Poste House, and found zilch, nada, naught. Even asking staff, who are more than helpful and very knowledgeable, turned up nothing. But if we're to believe Caz, the old Tavern in town was once known as the Poste House, it's just that there's literally no evidence of this anywhere in this city, but I'm told she had it on good word from a random man in a pub whose name she cannot provide.
Par for the course really.
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  #898  
Old 09-13-2017, 11:53 AM
Mike J. G. Mike J. G. is offline
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I've heard they do a good line in books devoted to obscure poetry too.

There's an antique bookshop on London road that has been around a good while, and deals in some very obscure and old books, and also has a plethora of hard-to-find local poetry.

http://www.henrybohnbooksliverpool.co.uk/
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  #899  
Old 09-13-2017, 11:57 AM
Observer Observer is offline
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Hey doesn't the Diary include a decidedly obscure poem?
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  #900  
Old 09-13-2017, 12:02 PM
Mike J. G. Mike J. G. is offline
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Hey doesn't the Diary include a decidedly obscure poem?
Obscure poem, details found in books by an author Barrett was reading, items worded the same as it is in lists published a century later, out-of-date phrases and pubs, conflicting handwriting to May's actual known hand, etc.

But hey, the ink was shown to be old, by at least one source, we can just forget the other source which claimed the ink was capable of being modern.

It's all about picking and choosing what we fancy believing, that's how stuff works, afterall. Oh, wait, it isn't.

Evidence for it being genuine? Anyone?

Is that a tumbleweed?
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