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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #1  
Old 08-18-2017, 05:44 AM
Patrick S Patrick S is offline
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Default Bloodhounds

In his inquest testimony Abberline said, "I had an intimation from Inspector Beck that the bloodhounds had been sent for, and the reply had been received that they were on the way. Dr. Phillips was unwilling to force the door, as it would be very much better to test the dogs, if they were coming. We remained until about 1.30 p.m., when Superintendent Arnold arrived, and he informed me that the order in regard to the dogs had been countermanded, and he gave orders for the door to be forced."

I take this to mean someone "called off the dogs", so to speak. Anyone know WHO countermanded the order to send the dogs? Why?

Much is made of Warren's decision to have the Graffito in Goulston Street erased. Might this decision have been of greater magnitude? Expanding a bit. If the police had access to dogs why were they never utilized. Although it occurred within the City of London (and as far as I know there's no mention of the city police having access to or utilizing dogs), dogs may have been effective in tracking Eddowes killer's scent from Mitre Square.
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Old 08-18-2017, 05:54 AM
DJA DJA is offline
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Edwin Brough had already relieved the police of Burgho and Barnaby.
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Old 08-18-2017, 06:15 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick S View Post
In his inquest testimony Abberline said, "I had an intimation from Inspector Beck that the bloodhounds had been sent for, and the reply had been received that they were on the way. Dr. Phillips was unwilling to force the door, as it would be very much better to test the dogs, if they were coming. We remained until about 1.30 p.m., when Superintendent Arnold arrived, and he informed me that the order in regard to the dogs had been countermanded, and he gave orders for the door to be forced."

I take this to mean someone "called off the dogs", so to speak. Anyone know WHO countermanded the order to send the dogs? Why?

Much is made of Warren's decision to have the Graffito in Goulston Street erased. Might this decision have been of greater magnitude? Expanding a bit. If the police had access to dogs why were they never utilized. Although it occurred within the City of London (and as far as I know there's no mention of the city police having access to or utilizing dogs), dogs may have been effective in tracking Eddowes killer's scent from Mitre Square.
Hi Patrick,

As I understand it. the bloodhounds were no longer available to the Met, the owner having taken them back home. Presumably Beck wasn't aware of this when he told Abberline they would be sent. But someone higher up (probably Anderson) was, or soon found out, hence cancelling the order and allowing room 13 to be entered.
Even though the police tried to keep at least one side of Dorset St free of crowds, the dogs probably wouldn't have been much use (unless the killer lived somewhere in the street). Mitre Square in the middle of the night might have been a different matter, but as you say this was in the City. And I don't think the dogs were offered for use until after the double event.
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Old 08-18-2017, 06:36 AM
Patrick S Patrick S is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Hi Patrick,

As I understand it. the bloodhounds were no longer available to the Met, the owner having taken them back home. Presumably Beck wasn't aware of this when he told Abberline they would be sent. But someone higher up (probably Anderson) was, or soon found out, hence cancelling the order and allowing room 13 to be entered.
Even though the police tried to keep at least one side of Dorset St free of crowds, the dogs probably wouldn't have been much use (unless the killer lived somewhere in the street). Mitre Square in the middle of the night might have been a different matter, but as you say this was in the City. And I don't think the dogs were offered for use until after the double event.
Got it. Great explanation. Thank you!
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Old 08-18-2017, 06:40 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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If memory serves hadn't Warren recently had an unsuccessful 'dry run' with the hounds in a park somewhere? I'd imagine that he'd taken a fair bit of stick for this. Even though Barnaby and Burgho were no longer available other dogs might have been. Perhaps Sir Charles just didn't want to give the press anymore reasons for criticism or mockery?
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Old 08-18-2017, 06:58 AM
DJA DJA is offline
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Perhaps Edwin Brough,JP of Scarborough and his bloodhounds deterred Jack the Ripper until they were retrieved from police hands.
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Old 08-18-2017, 07:18 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
If memory serves hadn't Warren recently had an unsuccessful 'dry run' with the hounds in a park somewhere? I'd imagine that he'd taken a fair bit of stick for this. Even though Barnaby and Burgho were no longer available other dogs might have been. Perhaps Sir Charles just didn't want to give the press anymore reasons for criticism or mockery?
Several trials were held and were largely successful. I think the supposed failure of the trials was a journalistic fiction.
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Old 08-18-2017, 07:44 AM
DJA DJA is offline
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October 19 report of the bloodhounds being lost in the fog was a bit of schtick.
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Old 08-18-2017, 08:21 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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This is the report from the Times 19th Oct detailing the police use of the bloodhounds;

"It will be remembered that, at Sir Charles Warren's request, Mr. Brough, the well-known bloodhound breeder of Scarborough, was communicated with shortly after the Mitre-square and Berner-street tragedies, and asked to bring a couple of trained hounds up to London for the purpose of testing their capabilities in the way of following the scent of a man. The hounds were name Burgho and Barnaby, and in one of the trials Sir Charles Warren himself acted as the quarry and expressed satisfaction at the result. Arrangements were made for the immediate conveyance of the animals to the spot in the event of another murder occurring, and in order to facilitate matters Mr. Brough, who was compelled to return to Scarborough, left the hounds in the care of Mr. Taunton of 8, Doughty-street, who is a friend of his. Mr. Taunton, who is a high authority on matters appertaining to the larger breeds of dogs, has ample accommodation in the rear of his residence for kennelling such valuable animals, and he was accordingly entrusted with their custody pending the conclusion of the negotiations which had been opened for the ultimate purchase of the dogs. Sir Charles Warren, however, it is said, would not give any definite assurance on the point, and the result was Mr. Brough insisted on resuming possession of the animals. Mr. Taunton has made the following statement:- After the trial in Regent's Park Burgho was sent to Brighton, where he had been entered for the show, which lasted three days. In the meantime Barnaby remained in my care. Burgho would have been sent back to me, but as Mr. Brough could not get anything definite from Sir Charles Warren, he declined to do so, and wrote asking me to return Barnaby. I did not do so at first, but, acting on my own responsibility, retained possession of the dog for some time longer. About a fortnight ago I received a telegram from Leman-street Police-station asking me to bring up the hounds. It was then shortly after noon, and I took Barnaby at once. On arrival at the station I was told by the superintendent that a burglary had been committed about 5 o'clock that morning in Commercial-street, and I was asked to attempt to track the thief by means of the dog. The police admitted that since the burglary they had been all over the premises. I pointed out the stupidity of expecting a dog to accomplish anything under such circumstances and after such a length of time had been allowed to elapse, and took the animal home. I wrote telling Mr. Brough of this and he wired insisting that the dog should be sent back at once, as the danger of its being poisoned, if it were known that the police were trying to track burglars by its aid, was very great, and Mr. Brough had no guarantee against any pecuniary loss he might suffer in the event of the animal's being maltreated. Therefore, there has not been a "police bloodhound" - that is to say, a trained hound, in London for the past fortnight. The origin of the tale regarding the hounds being lost at Tooting while being practiced in tracking a man I can only account for in the following way. I had arranged to take Barnaby out to Hemel Hempstead to give the hound some practice. The same day a sheep was maliciously killed on Tooting-common, and the police wired to London asking that the hounds might be sent down. I was then some miles away from London with Barnaby, and did not get the telegram until my return, late in the evening. Somebody doubtless remarked that the hounds were missing, meaning that they did not arrive when sent for, and this was magnified into a report that they had been lost. At the time Burgho was at Scarborough. Under the circumstances in which the body of Mary Ann Kelly [sic] was found I do not think bloodhounds would have been of any use. It was then broad daylight and the streets crowded with people. The only chance the hounds would have would be in the event of a murdered body being discovered, as the others were, in the small hours of the morning, and being put on the trail before many people were about."
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Old 08-18-2017, 01:50 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJA View Post
Edwin Brough had already relieved the police of Burgho and Barnaby.
I thought only one had left by then.
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