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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Maybrick, James

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  #221  
Old 08-13-2017, 04:49 AM
Observer Observer is offline
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It's also occurred to me that the "Eight Little Whores" poem could put a dent in the Old hoaxer theory. I have no doubt that the draft of a poem as seen in the Diary obviously mirrors the "Eight Little Whores " poem. If the diary was penned by an "old Hoaxer" then he would have had to have had access to the letter which was submitted to the police in which the "Eight Little Whores " poem featured. Either that, or he too knew Thomas Dutton, and obtained the information from him. Likely? Most definitely not. The alternative? As I said the hoaxer was using McCormicks book to appear to have been the author of the "Eight Little Whores" poem. Take your pick.
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  #222  
Old 08-13-2017, 06:37 AM
Hunter Hunter is offline
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You are very observant, Observer.
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  #223  
Old 08-13-2017, 08:00 AM
Iconoclast Iconoclast is offline
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I don't think this is rocket science. Maybrick sent in the poem to Central News or wherever, Dutton saw a copy of it, McCormick saw Dutton's notes and then referred to them in his much-maligned 1959 book. Dutton may not have copied the poem down correctly, nor may McCormick, but that's not the point. The trail from Maybrick's hand to McCormick's book is possibly this trail. I say possibly because quite clearly it possibly is the work of a hoaxer who relied on McCormick's work when creating the journal. We just don't know, do we?

My point about Naysayers is that they will home in on the latter version as the only version because it supports their casual dismissal of the journal. My point about the feeble-minded is that they will then take those comments as fact.

The journal makes references to rhymes being sent to the police. My brilliant History vs Maybrick shows that those rhymes appeared in the journal at just the right time. I think that was apropos Feldy, as it wasn't my conclusion, but nevertheless I believe that the point was well made. If a hoaxer wrote the journal, he or she did very well indeed to incorporate rhymes in the text. The first rhyme used the name Jack the Ripper and was penned not long after the second canonical murder. That's clever hoaxing in my book.

I couldn't give a toss if no-one agrees with my interpretation of the GSG. I don't study the Ripper because I seek popularity! I do it because I seek the truth. If I were the one person alive saying X and six billion saying Y, if I believed that X was correct then I would say it.

The Eight Little Whores rhyme in the journal is not at all problematic, nor does it speak of some fraud or hoax. It may well be a fraud or hoax or whatever, but its presence in the journal is not proof of it, nor even symptomatic of it.

Ike

Last edited by Iconoclast : 08-13-2017 at 08:04 AM.
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  #224  
Old 08-13-2017, 08:02 AM
Iconoclast Iconoclast is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
You are very observant, Observer.
I trust that this is just some casual play on the username?

If not, then I rest my case.

Ike
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  #225  
Old 08-13-2017, 11:04 AM
Observer Observer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
You are very observant, Observer.
Hi Hunter

I'll probably get a reply from the Old Hoaxer brigade explaining that the two rhymes are not linked
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  #226  
Old 08-13-2017, 11:32 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
The Eight Little Whores rhyme... may well be a fraud or hoax or whatever, but its presence in the journal is not proof of it, nor even symptomatic of it.
It could well be symptomatic, in that a forger might feel inclined to believe that the "real Ripper" liked to write teasing little rhymes, when in all likelihood he did not. There are contemporary hoaxed letters with rhymes, and there are later books, like McCormick's, with their own almost certainly spurious rhymes. Someone wanting to make their text (be it a diary or whatever) appear to be authored by the Ripper might, after having read the Ripper literature, feel inclined to throw in the odd rhyme here and there "because that's what the Ripper would have done, innit?" A risky strategy, when it's by no means certain that the actual Ripper would have done anything of the sort.
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  #227  
Old 08-13-2017, 11:52 AM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Hi All,

Following publication of Leonard Matters’ book, Dr. Thomas Dutton wrote to the Daily Mail, 14th May 1929—

“Sir, — Living in Whitechapel (Aldgate) about the time of the Jack the Ripper murders, I took great interest in them from a medical point of view.

“I did not draw the same conclusion as Mr. Leonard Matters, but believe they were committed by a ship’s butcher.

“Having been a surgeon in the Mercantile Marine I have seen these butchers with even greater skill with the knife than many expert operating surgeons. After the murders, going home one night with a black bag in which was a masonic apron, I was accosted by two women who shouted ‘Jack the Ripper.’

“Thomas Dutton, M.D., 25 New Cavendish Street, Harley Street, W.1.”

No mention there of a Liverpool cotton merchant.

Dutton's Chronicles of Crime was a McCormick invention to promote his 1959 Pedachenko theory, and the Eight Little Whores rhyme—one of Jack the Ripper's "effective essays into verse"—was another invention based in part on retired policeman Robert Spicer's 16th March 1931 letter to the Daily Express, alleging that he had arrested Jack in Henage Court. His letter appeared in the wake of the equally bogus Robert James Lees story.

Check the chronology of Spicer's story. It puts the Henage Court arrest after Jack “had committed two murders” [between 31st August and 8th September 1888], but dates the doctor’s release from police custody later the same morning as having taken place in November 1888.

Still no mention of a Liverpool cotton merchant.

The Diary is late 20th Century.

Regards,

Simon
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Last edited by Simon Wood : 08-13-2017 at 12:00 PM. Reason: spolling mistook
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  #228  
Old 08-13-2017, 01:12 PM
Observer Observer is offline
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[quote=Iconoclast;425413]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
I don't think this is rocket science. Maybrick sent in the poem to Central News or wherever, Dutton saw a copy of it, McCormick saw Dutton's notes and then referred to them in his much-maligned 1959 book. Dutton may not have copied the poem down correctly, nor may McCormick, but that's not the point. The trail from Maybrick's hand to McCormick's book is possibly this trail. I say possibly because quite clearly it possibly is the work of a hoaxer who relied on McCormick's work when creating the journal. We just don't know, do we?
It just rolls off the tongue ! Maybrick prepares a draft in the Journal, he writes a few lines in said Journal, and thinks I'll tell you what I'll go one better and sends the full poem in a letter to the police. Simple as. You know those hoaxers, have you hook line and sinker. A question though. Did Maybrick pen the entry in the Journal first, or did the letter to the police, with the finished poem come first?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
My point about Naysayers is that they will home in on the latter version as the only version because it supports their casual dismissal of the journal. My point about the feeble-minded is that they will then take those comments as fact.
There are no feeble minded individuals viewing these threads. How do you arrive at that conclusion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
The journal makes references to rhymes being sent to the police. My brilliant History vs Maybrick shows that those rhymes appeared in the journal at just the right time. I think that was apropos Feldy, as it wasn't my conclusion, but nevertheless I believe that the point was well made. If a hoaxer wrote the journal, he or she did very well indeed to incorporate rhymes in the text. The first rhyme used the name Jack the Ripper and was penned not long after the second canonical murder. That's clever hoaxing in my book.
Your brilliant History v Maybrick ? Ermmm yes, ok. The hoaxer is following the progress of the books he has on the subject of JTR. It's no mystery that he has the events in order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
I couldn't give a toss if no-one agrees with my interpretation of the GSG. I don't study the Ripper because I seek popularity! I do it because I seek the truth. If I were the one person alive saying X and six billion saying Y, if I believed that X was correct then I would say it.
If you believe that James Maybrick and his family's initials are hidden in the GSG, then all I can say is that you're deluded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
The Eight Little Whores rhyme in the journal is not at all problematic, nor does it speak of some fraud or hoax. It may well be a fraud or hoax or whatever, but its presence in the journal is not proof of it, nor even symptomatic of it.
The "Eight Little Whores" rhyme doesn't appear in the Journal, merely a draft of it? I see that you're consistent as ever though in your defence of the Journal. It's another case of oh yes the poem the "Eight Little Whores" could indeed be the work of a hoaxer, but, it can't be ruled out as having been written by Maybrick. The difference between you and I though is I adopt the obvious answer, you the fantastic.

Last edited by Observer : 08-13-2017 at 01:18 PM.
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  #229  
Old 08-13-2017, 01:19 PM
PaulB PaulB is offline
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Simon,
I think you'll find that the 'Chronicles of Crime'were not invented by Donald McCormick in 1959, but are mentioned in a newsaper as far back as 1935, and
allegedly claimed Jack the Ripper was ‘a middle-aged doctor, a man whose mind had been embittered by the death of his son. The latter had suffered cruelly at the hands of a woman of the streets, and the father believed this to be the cause of his brilliant son’s death’. The three-volume 'Chronicles' were owned by Miss Hermione Dudley, a friend and patient of Dr Dutton.

Of course, McCormick could have written the 1935 newspaper article.If so, it wasn't to promote a book that was over two decades in the future.

I hope you are keeping chipper.

Paul
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  #230  
Old 08-13-2017, 01:30 PM
Kaz Kaz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Observer View Post
.....Simple as. You know those hoaxers, have you hook line and sinker...

Those hoaxers?

who are these hoaxers you talk about?

You're so sure there is a myriad of conmen behind this, who are these people?
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