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Most Recent Posts:
Periodicals: The Suicide of Pigott - by David Orsam 2 minutes ago.
Witnesses: The Bucks Row Project part 2 - by Elamarna 26 minutes ago.
Witnesses: The Bucks Row Project part 2 - by Elamarna 32 minutes ago.
Witnesses: The Bucks Row Project part 2 - by MrBarnett 37 minutes ago.
Periodicals: The Suicide of Pigott - by Simon Wood 38 minutes ago.
Witnesses: The Bucks Row Project part 2 - by Pierre 1 hour and 11 minutes ago.

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Maybrick, James: One Incontrovertible, Unequivocal, Undeniable Fact Which Refutes the Diary - (157 posts)
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Goulston Street Graffito: Can we profile the Ripper from the GSG? - (22 posts)
General Police Discussion: Leaving one's beat - (15 posts)
Witnesses: The Bucks Row Project part 2 - (14 posts)
Maybrick, James: 25 YEARS OF THE DIARY OF JACK THE RIPPER: THE TRUE FACTS by Robert Smith - (10 posts)

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  #61  
Old 08-13-2017, 02:44 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is online now
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Default Bucks Row Project part 2 post 11 - Lilley

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The reports on the statement of Harriet lilley are intriguing, but ultimately unrewarding.

She claims she was awake and heard a series of noises, a painful moan and several faint gasps (the attack?). she also say she heard whispers and distinct voices (Paul and Lechmere?).

The interesting point is she claimed to hear a train passing at the same time, however it is not clear if the whispers are after or before the train.

The only train it could reasonably be is the 3.07 from New Cross.
The time of 3.07 from New Cross allows us to check, but poster drstrange169 (dusty miller) has pointed out the company, Eastern Railway were notoriously bad for sticking to time tables.
However by checking the 1906 Bradshaws, (only copy I could find for the period), it was possible to estimate that the train should have arrived 14-16 minutes after departure, that is 3.21-3.22, however being a goods train it may have moved slower and so 3.25-3.30 seems most likely, but given Dusty’s comments it does not really help.

It has also been suggested that her report is so far after the the event it my not be reliable, and while this may indeed be true to an extent, Mrs Green and others did not give evidence until 17th so such an argument is not 100% convincing.

IF and it is a big IF Lilley is correct, then the timing of the attack may be closer to 3.30 than 3.45

However it must also be admitted Lilley was not called to give evidence at the inquest.

The reliability of the reports is open to some question at present and more research is need on lilley before her statements can be useful.
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  #62  
Old 08-13-2017, 02:53 AM
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Default Bucks Row Project part 2 post 12 - Walker, Nichols, Monk, Eade & Holland

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  #63  
Old 08-13-2017, 02:54 AM
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Default Bucks Row Project part 2 post 12a - Walker, Nichols, Monk, Eade & Holland

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I have combined a group of witnesses here, while their testimony gives background on the events in Bucks Row that night, it gives little in the way of evidence to what occurred,

Walker, Nichols and Monk therefore are included but no assessment is made of their testimony given that such does not directly relate to Bucks Row on the 31st. They are included for completeness of the records

Eade’s account while initially of some interest, appears to be explained away by the Police, at least to the satisfaction of Mr Baxter,

This leaves us with Holland or as some report Oram.

Her testimony allows us to at least draw a possible view of Nichols some 60-105 minutes before she is found dead. (most reports say 2.30, but report 8 says 2am )

Reports 6-10 state she was drunk and alone, she had spent her doss money several times over, would not go with Holland and would continue to search for money to pay for her bed.
Holland of course says she has no idea how Nichols gets money.

The meeting occurred at corner of Osborne Street and Whitechapel Road, according to report 8 the exchange took some 7-8 minutes, this may not be reliable given the report is the only one to give the time of the meeting as 2 rather than 2.30. at best I suggest it points to the meeting being more than just a brief exchange.
After which Nichols continued on along Whitechapel Road, and that is all.
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  #64  
Old 08-13-2017, 02:56 AM
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There will be a break of a few days, before the next section which looks at the goings on at the mortuary and the slaughter house. Wednesday posting probably.


Steve
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  #65  
Old 08-13-2017, 03:05 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Excellent work, Steve.

I'm particularly looking forward to your take on the doings of the knackers.
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  #66  
Old 08-13-2017, 03:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Excellent work, Steve.

I'm particularly looking forward to your take on the doings of the knackers.

Thank You
It one of the most interesting parts I think, while I do not for one moment think any are involved in the Murder, there is a lot of evasion and misinformation supplied to the inquest, and a degree of loyalty not returned, if you get my drift.


Steve
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  #67  
Old 08-13-2017, 03:29 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Thank You
It one of the most interesting parts I think, while I do not for one moment think any are involved in the Murder, there is a lot of evasion and misinformation supplied to the inquest, and a degree of loyalty not returned, if you get my drift.


Steve
Yes, I believe Tomkins was being somewhat economical with the truth. He was the odd one out of the three, having only recently arrived in London from Manchester, and yet he was chosen (by whom?) to act as spokesman.

It will be interesting to see all the sources side by side.
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  #68  
Old 08-13-2017, 03:40 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
The reports on the statement of Harriet lilley are intriguing, but ultimately unrewarding.
Strictly-speaking, there seems to be just the one report of Harriet Lilley's account, published, with identical wording, in the Echo, the People and Lloyd's Weekly.
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  #69  
Old 08-13-2017, 03:49 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Strictly-speaking, there seems to be just the one report of Harriet Lilley's account, published, with identical wording, in the Echo, the People and Lloyd's Weekly.
Yes Gareth, i left "The People" out for that reason, and because I am aware of the amount of space am using too.
However i wished to show there was more than a single report in just one publication.


Steve
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  #70  
Old 08-13-2017, 03:51 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Yes, I believe Tomkins was being somewhat economical with the truth. He was the odd one out of the three, having only recently arrived in London from Manchester, and yet he was chosen (by whom?) to act as spokesman.

It will be interesting to see all the sources side by side.
Hi,

not sure about ALL the Sources, use 16 in dealing with them

Steve
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