Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by RockySullivan 3 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by RockySullivan 3 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by RockySullivan 3 hours ago.
Non-Fiction: Scholes of the Yard: The Casebook of a Scotland Yard Detective 1888 to 1924 - by Herlock Sholmes 4 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by Trevor Marriott 5 hours ago.
Non-Fiction: Scholes of the Yard: The Casebook of a Scotland Yard Detective 1888 to 1924 - by Pcdunn 5 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - (26 posts)
Non-Fiction: Scholes of the Yard: The Casebook of a Scotland Yard Detective 1888 to 1924 - (3 posts)
Conferences and Meetings: American Jack the Ripper - True Crime Conference, Baltimore, April 7-8, 2018 - (3 posts)
Thompson, Francis: Jack the Poet - (2 posts)
Neil, P.C. John: Running towards me without a hat, which raised my suspicions!!! - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Media > Books > Non-Fiction

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #501  
Old 05-22-2017, 09:49 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,915
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
But let's talk about other parts of the book. I'd like to hear your counter-argument to my stuff on Packer.
I have no idea why you think I have a "counter argument" to your stuff on Packer. I don't even have any recollection of what reasons you gave why Packer should not be taken seriously as a witness. The subject is of little or no interest to me. I am, however, interested in the issue of the blood in Brady Street which is why I have been asking you questions about it.
__________________
Orsam Books
www.orsam.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #502  
Old 05-22-2017, 07:27 PM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,672
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
I have no idea why you think I have a "counter argument" to your stuff on Packer. I don't even have any recollection of what reasons you gave why Packer should not be taken seriously as a witness. The subject is of little or no interest to me. I am, however, interested in the issue of the blood in Brady Street which is why I have been asking you questions about it.
The blood in Brady Street was at least a bloody handprint in front of Honey's mews and may also have included drops running in the direction of where Brady intersects with Buck's Row. But the blood apparently did not turn onto Buck's Row.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #503  
Old 05-23-2017, 09:41 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,915
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
The blood in Brady Street was at least a bloody handprint in front of Honey's mews and may also have included drops running in the direction of where Brady intersects with Buck's Row. But the blood apparently did not turn onto Buck's Row.
Right, and following on from that, it has been said that the "bloody handprint" you refer to might be that of a woman called Margaret Millows, so a few questions:

1. On what date was Margaret Millows admitted to the London Hospital?

2. Did Gary Barnett misread the hospital records when he concluded that they show that Margaret Millows was admitted to the London Hospital on 1 September?

3. When you read the document in question from the London Hospital in preparation for your book, did you see and appreciate that the entry for Margaret Millows appeared under the heading of "Sep 1?".

4. If you did see and appreciate that the entry for Margaret Millows appeared under the heading of "Sep 1" (a) what did you think it meant? and (b) why did you not mention this fact in your book?

5. If Margaret Millows was admitted to the London Hospital on 1 September, what effect, if any, would you say this has on your theory, as presented in your book, that she was attacked in Brady Street in the early hours of 31 August?

6. Do you still maintain, as you say in your book, that Margaret Millows must have been not very far from the London Hospital when she sustained her injury (because otherwise else she would have bled to death)?
__________________
Orsam Books
www.orsam.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #504  
Old 06-28-2017, 06:05 AM
Garza Garza is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 236
Default

Aww man another Tom book, gotta get me that :-) .
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #505  
Old 07-02-2017, 01:53 PM
Garza Garza is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 236
Default

Hey Tom, don't know if you've blocked this thread out lol, but I just finished your book.

I really liked it.

1. I think you have finally won me over to JtR using robbery as a rouse, I have fought it for years, but I think it makes sense. Bundy used the pretence of being injured, Jack used the pretence of robbery.
2. That being the case do you think that is why Liz Stride did not appear to struggle? Basically hole a knife to her throat and said lie down, and he shoved her down with her basically frozen?
3. How would someone learn such a strangle hold in Victorian East End? Army? A gang? That would be interesting to follow up on.

If you can remember I am a big Berner Street nut myself and I agree with most of what you day about Berner street. I think yes, we have to centre our witness testimony around Fanny Mortimer. However I can't agree with you on Schwartz.

If you take out his testimony, all the other witness testimonies fits so neatly. Instead of getting tangled up, the wisest course is to choose the path with the least resistance. Take Schwartz out, everything becomes wonderfully simple.

There were lots of people giving false testimony during these crimes, Schwartz just got further than most - someone was bound to.

Even if you want to squeeze Schwartz in, according to Schwartz there was a shout of "Lipski" (a negative racial term) and 3 "Quiet" screams from Liz in a Victorian terraced housing in a narrow street. Obviously there is no such housing in the good old US of A, but such housing gives a lot of echoing (depending on the width of the street). I have lived in such housing.

The echos would have carried even greater in Dutfield's yard as well!

Yet despite the echos and the racial epithet (which would have garnered attention) , no-one else close in the vicinity heard a single thing - and that is what is most damning about Schwartz's testimony in my mind.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #506  
Old 07-04-2017, 02:07 AM
martin wilson martin wilson is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 375
Default

Hugely enjoyable read. The first half is beautifully written but mea culpa, I got all turned around at Berner street and the will flagged.
I'm not inclined to dismiss Millous/Millows, Mallows. There was no evidence of huge gouts of arterial spray in Brady street, suggestive of an initially manageable injury which however wouldn't stop bleeding and required hospitalization.
Friday at a city hospital? Probably a madhouse.
17 days in hospital suggests infection or complications after surgery, it also may explain the lack of police and press interest, we are post Chapman and there were no doubt dozens of ripper stories.
I take away from it a woman may have been attacked and survived, and for me Millous/Nicholls Stride/Eddowes show a similarity in terms of compulsion.
Well played Tom. I commend the book to anyone, although a grounding may help. Above all else it's tremendous fun.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #507  
Old 08-13-2017, 01:58 AM
miss marple miss marple is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 722
Default

I ordered it from Amazon a couple of months ago and they lost it, so reimbused me. Just got my new copy, started reading it this weekend. Gripping and logical, as interesting as the Bank Holiday Murders. Much to ponder on and analyse. What is always interesting about Tom 's work is the framework he creates, rather than seeing the murders in isolation.

Miss Marple
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #508  
Old 08-29-2017, 06:52 PM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,672
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garza View Post
Hey Tom, don't know if you've blocked this thread out lol, but I just finished your book.

I really liked it.

1. I think you have finally won me over to JtR using robbery as a rouse, I have fought it for years, but I think it makes sense. Bundy used the pretence of being injured, Jack used the pretence of robbery.
2. That being the case do you think that is why Liz Stride did not appear to struggle? Basically hole a knife to her throat and said lie down, and he shoved her down with her basically frozen?
3. How would someone learn such a strangle hold in Victorian East End? Army? A gang? That would be interesting to follow up on.

If you can remember I am a big Berner Street nut myself and I agree with most of what you day about Berner street. I think yes, we have to centre our witness testimony around Fanny Mortimer. However I can't agree with you on Schwartz.

If you take out his testimony, all the other witness testimonies fits so neatly. Instead of getting tangled up, the wisest course is to choose the path with the least resistance. Take Schwartz out, everything becomes wonderfully simple.

There were lots of people giving false testimony during these crimes, Schwartz just got further than most - someone was bound to.

Even if you want to squeeze Schwartz in, according to Schwartz there was a shout of "Lipski" (a negative racial term) and 3 "Quiet" screams from Liz in a Victorian terraced housing in a narrow street. Obviously there is no such housing in the good old US of A, but such housing gives a lot of echoing (depending on the width of the street). I have lived in such housing.

The echos would have carried even greater in Dutfield's yard as well!

Yet despite the echos and the racial epithet (which would have garnered attention) , no-one else close in the vicinity heard a single thing - and that is what is most damning about Schwartz's testimony in my mind.
Hi Garza, great to hear from you and thank you for the very kind words. I haven't blocked any threads, just don't visit sites like I used to. As for Schwartz, BS Man said it to him, so we shouldn't suppose he yelled it out. The only people nearby who might have heard him were the people in the club and they were playing music and singing. Also, Lipski is an actual Jewish surname, so if someone DID hear it, they might have registered it as a call to a fellow, since they were all, in fact, Jewish. It's not strange at all that no one recalled hearing it. It's also possible someone did hear it but kept it to themselves. Many preferred not to get involved with police matters.

Weighing this against the support in timing Schwartz receives from Mortimer and in the Pipeman/Overcoat Man with Brown, I'd say this evidence far outweighs someone not hearing a single word called out at a volume that may not have been that loud.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #509  
Old 08-29-2017, 09:20 PM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,672
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by martin wilson View Post
Hugely enjoyable read. The first half is beautifully written but mea culpa, I got all turned around at Berner street and the will flagged.
I know that chapter is a bit boring, but the stuff after it is the best in the book. If nothing else, read the Mortimer chapter and Schwartz chapter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by martin wilson
I'm not inclined to dismiss Millous/Millows, Mallows. There was no evidence of huge gouts of arterial spray in Brady street, suggestive of an initially manageable injury which however wouldn't stop bleeding and required hospitalization.
Friday at a city hospital? Probably a madhouse.
17 days in hospital suggests infection or complications after surgery, it also may explain the lack of police and press interest, we are post Chapman and there were no doubt dozens of ripper stories.
I take away from it a woman may have been attacked and survived, and for me Millous/Nicholls Stride/Eddowes show a similarity in terms of compulsion.
Well played Tom. I commend the book to anyone, although a grounding may help. Above all else it's tremendous fun.
Very reasonable observation on your part, if I may say so.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #510  
Old 08-29-2017, 09:21 PM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,672
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by miss marple View Post
I ordered it from Amazon a couple of months ago and they lost it, so reimbused me. Just got my new copy, started reading it this weekend. Gripping and logical, as interesting as the Bank Holiday Murders. Much to ponder on and analyse. What is always interesting about Tom 's work is the framework he creates, rather than seeing the murders in isolation.

Miss Marple
Thank you, Miss Marple! That truly means a lot.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.