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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #21  
Old 08-12-2017, 05:41 AM
DJA DJA is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
You mean they knew him, and he them?

Unlikely, for the same reasons that all (or even some of) the victims are unlikely to have known each other in any meaningful sense.
Yep.

In Nichols and Eddowes (Conway) case,for over 20 years.

I have previously linked all five to one person,who I am sure was known as Jack the Ripper.

Really not interested in your circular argument.
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  #22  
Old 08-12-2017, 05:58 AM
curious curious is offline
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Yep.

In Nichols and Eddowes (Conway) case,for over 20 years.

I have previously linked all five to one person,who I am sure was known as Jack the Ripper.

Really not interested in your circular argument.
I'm interested in your research. Have you found that Eddowes and William Henry Bury were related?

curious
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  #23  
Old 08-12-2017, 06:00 AM
DJA DJA is offline
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Very interesting. I was seeing book, Harry D, movie. Thanks for the information.

curious
Davies,Sutton and Gull all lived in Finsbury Square.
Sutton moved next door to Gull in the mid 1860s.
Master and protege. Sutton was not an MD.
Sutton took up positions that included London Hospital and St. Leonard's Vestry Board.
Oddly another Dr Davies mentioned in the case was at Sutton's's residence in the 1881 Census. Sutton was holidaying at Seven Oaks.

You will find Mary Ann Kelly's baptismal record at St. Leonards.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas..._(toxicologist)
On St.Leonard's Vestry Board.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Savage_(physician)
Sutton's son in law.
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  #24  
Old 08-12-2017, 06:03 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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In Nichols and Eddowes (Conway) case,for over 20 years.
They came from entirely different backgrounds, and grew up in different parts of London (indeed, different parts of England) from one another. As a young woman, Eddowes went back and forth from London to the Midlands like a yo-yo, nowhere near Polly Nichols. The latter only arrived in Whitechapel some 4 weeks (max) before her death, when Eddowes had headed off to Kent to pick hops, from where she did not return until just over three weeks after Nichols died. It is extremely unlikely, if not impossible, that they could have got to know one another; not even by sight.
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Really not interested in your circular argument.
My argument is perfectly linear. Yours is evidently the circular one.
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  #25  
Old 08-12-2017, 06:06 AM
DJA DJA is offline
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I'm interested in your research. Have you found that Eddowes and William Henry Bury were related?

curious
Nope

One thing that someone might help with .......

was there a Vestry Board/Board of Works AGM in Ailie Street on the night of the double event?
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  #26  
Old 08-14-2017, 03:49 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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...along with about 800 other people! Besides, Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly lived practically at opposite ends of Dorset Street, and there was a fairly substantial age-gap betwen them; nothing to suggest they'd have moved in the same circles, still less that they'd have been acquainted with one another.

The idea of Polly Nichols being acquainted with the others is even less likely. Nichols spent most of her solo adult life in Lambeth, between April 1882 and May 1888, working for a couple of months in Wandsworth, before moving to Gray's Inn Workhouse for 1st to 2nd August 1888. In other words, she could only have arrived in Whitechapel within 4 weeks of of her death at most; during that time she lived in Thrawl Street and Flower & Dean, spending what must have only been the briefest of spells in Dorset Steet itself.

Similar logical and logistical stumbling-blocks apply to the idea that Eddowes and Stride were acquainted, either with each other or the rest of the canonical victims.
I agree with most of the above Sam, but there is a very odd coincidental feature of these murders, and that's the aliases used by Catherine Eddowes in her last 24 hours. I'm not certain why she would use aliases for one, I don't believe we have record that she was engaged in any illegal activities. That includes solicitation, if she was with John almost every night as has been stated, then the opportunities would be limited at best. So why the fake name?

The 2 names she used contain Mary Kellys full name and almost all of her address. Coincidence? Possibly. But it seems odd to me, considering that these murders, which have long been thought to be the work of one individual, would have aliases being used that might connect one victim to a subsequent victim by preexisting knowledge of each other.
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  #27  
Old 08-14-2017, 04:42 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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The 2 names she used contain Mary Kellys full name and almost all of her address. Coincidence? Possibly.
In terms of the alias given to the police, it was "Mary Ann Kelly of Fashion Street", according to the Illustrated Police News, East London Advertiser, Manchester Guardian and the Pall Mall Gazette (judging from the wording, all these articles evidently drew from the same Press Agency report), or "Mary Anne Kelly of 6, Fashion Street", according to the Times. No matter which spelling of "Anne" we use, the full name that she gave to the police was not, therefore, the same as Mary Jane Kelly, and the address was clearly different.

With the pawn ticket, she gave her name as "Jane Kelly", with no mention of "Mary" this time. The address she gave was "6 Dorset Street", which only works if we use the less precise, and less-frequently seen, "26 Dorset Street" as MJK's address, as opposed to the more often encountered "13 Millers Court".

Eddowes' partner was John Kelly, and that she had form for using her previous partner's name "Conway", even though they weren't married either; her choice of "Kelly" as an alias is therefore easy to understand. The forenames she used were also very common, hence rather obvious choices if one wanted to make up a name on the spot; a bit like "John" or "Joe" would have been for men.

She was also clearly not averse to using false addresses, be they in Fashion Street or Dorset Street, so we can't really read too much into that. Given that she picked number "6" on both occasions, it might suggest that she made a habit of using that number for some reason; whether she operated such a system or not, the fact is that she did not use "26", but "6"... and that twice in a row.

All things considered, there doesn't seem to be much of a coincidence to explain.
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  #28  
Old 08-15-2017, 03:36 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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In terms of the alias given to the police, it was "Mary Ann Kelly of Fashion Street", according to the Illustrated Police News, East London Advertiser, Manchester Guardian and the Pall Mall Gazette (judging from the wording, all these articles evidently drew from the same Press Agency report), or "Mary Anne Kelly of 6, Fashion Street", according to the Times. No matter which spelling of "Anne" we use, the full name that she gave to the police was not, therefore, the same as Mary Jane Kelly, and the address was clearly different.

With the pawn ticket, she gave her name as "Jane Kelly", with no mention of "Mary" this time. The address she gave was "6 Dorset Street", which only works if we use the less precise, and less-frequently seen, "26 Dorset Street" as MJK's address, as opposed to the more often encountered "13 Millers Court".

Eddowes' partner was John Kelly, and that she had form for using her previous partner's name "Conway", even though they weren't married either; her choice of "Kelly" as an alias is therefore easy to understand. The forenames she used were also very common, hence rather obvious choices if one wanted to make up a name on the spot; a bit like "John" or "Joe" would have been for men.

She was also clearly not averse to using false addresses, be they in Fashion Street or Dorset Street, so we can't really read too much into that. Given that she picked number "6" on both occasions, it might suggest that she made a habit of using that number for some reason; whether she operated such a system or not, the fact is that she did not use "26", but "6"... and that twice in a row.

All things considered, there doesn't seem to be much of a coincidence to explain.
We only have these incidents Sam to assess how comfortable she was using aliases, and we only have John Kellys word for it that their relationship was anything more than a mutually satisfying partnership. She had children with Conway. They lived as a family. The circumstances were quite different.

My point is that the 2 aliases combined have almost all of Mary Jane Kellys full known name and address, missing as you point out, only the "2". My claim isn't that she sought to misidentify herself by using those choices, my claim is that she may have been revealing her knowledge of a Mary Kelly on Dorset Street in way that was not immediately obvious. How many people would have known about the name and address on the pawn ticket? How many would have known the name she used at Bishopsgate? This isn't some charted course she used to misrepresent her identity, it seems rather a rather revealing spur of the moment choice when looked at forensically.
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  #29  
Old 08-15-2017, 04:16 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Hello Michael
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
We only have these incidents Sam to assess how comfortable she was using aliases
Chances are she'd have done so in the past, as did several of the other Ripper victims and, indeed, witnesses.
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and we only have John Kellys word for it that their relationship was anything more than a mutually satisfying partnership.
I don't think that has much of a bearing on the matter. She could have been in a totally abusive relationship, for all we know, and still decided to use her partner's surname of "Kelly".
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She had children with Conway. They lived as a family. The circumstances were quite different.
She still used Conway's name, even though they weren't married, so there's no reason why she shouldn't have also used the name of her current partner.
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My point is that the 2 aliases combined have almost all of Mary Jane Kellys full known name and address, missing as you point out, only the "2".
Indeed, but in order to read any significance into that, we have to combine the aliased names and addresses and ignore the inconvenient facts that (a) she simply didn't say "26"; (b) she did give the name "Anne"; and (c) she doesn't allude to Miller's Court, or a Court of any kind, in either of the false addresses she gave. Instead, she names two streets that were known to harbour doss-houses.

Even if she'd had in mind a specific Mary Kelly - why not "Marie" and/or "Jeannette", by the way? - who's to say that it's our MJK? Given the population density, why shouldn't there have been a "Mary Kelly" in 26 Fashion Street, or 62 Dorset Street? Or a "Jane Mary Kelly" in 2 Fashion Street, and an "Mary Anne Kelly" in 22 Dorset Street? (There are other combinations of the false names/addresses I could have run through, but there are four by way of illustration.)

Kelly was a common surname, indeed the surname of her current partner, and "Mary", "Anne" and "Jane" were common forenames. I think that's all there is to it.
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  #30  
Old 08-15-2017, 04:24 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Kelly was a common surname, indeed the surname of her current partner, and "Mary", "Anne" and "Jane" were common forenames. I think that's all there is to it.
Even Alice McKenzie was known as Kelly at the Goulston Street Wash House.
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