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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #441  
Old 07-21-2017, 02:55 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Hey Herlock,

PC Thompson heard footsteps walking away shortly before he discovered Coles. Thompson was quoted as saying, "I nearly had him. He was only an armís length away, and I missed him" but this was written after his death and it's unknown if it was apocryphal statement. Either way, it's not what Thompson stated in his police report.

Had Coles been killed on 30th Sept 1888 instead of Stride, she probably would've been included as a Ripper victim, but of course based on the killer's movements on the double event, Eddowes might have been spared that night.
Hi Harry

I've just refreshed my jaded memory by reading Thompson's statement and he heard someone walking away at what seemed to him like a normal speed. I was pretty convinced that I remembered him saying that he'd heard someone running away! Just goes to show that you can't always be sure of what you think that you're sure of!
Obviously 'walking' doesn't point to a killer being disturbed in the act. I still don't think that she can be totally discounted but I agree with Abby that we probably have to list her as an unlikely victim of Jack (also taking into consideration the time gap.)

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  #442  
Old 07-21-2017, 02:58 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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I see coles as a possibility but only slightly. too much time has passed, no cuts to the abdomen, and it was probably still sadler IMHO.
Hi Abby

After finding out that Thompson said that he heard someone walking away at a normal speed rather than running (as I'd previously thought ) I'd have to agree with you there. The mind plays tricks....

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Herlock
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  #443  
Old 07-21-2017, 03:39 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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He probably would have walked. Police didn,t have any evidence against him. He could have had alibis, denied the letters and the knife and graffito. The top doctors called to testify had contrary beliefs on his method of mutilation. Other than the case of Elizabeth Stride, no constable reported seeing a man with the woman murdered. And, the prosecutions top witnesses - Packer, Hutchinson, Schwartz, Lawende, Mrs.Maxwell, Mrs. Long - would disagree on his identity (similar to the witnesses charging Dr. Hessell in the Coram Street mystery).
Hello Robert,

I meant if he was caught in the act of killing Stride. It would have been a hanging offense as opposed to say a stern lecture. Thus, he had serious reason to be paranoid and skittish.

c.d.
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  #444  
Old 07-21-2017, 08:06 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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If the killer had a bolt hole why can't he bring the apron with him,and not drop it and give a hint on where he was heading?
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  #445  
Old 07-22-2017, 03:43 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Hi Abby,

I agree that Tabram was probably a JtR victim. McKenzie's a real enigma. The abdominal wounds were relatively superficial, however, the blood evidence strongly suggests that the killer was disturbed. In fact, PC Andrews must have arrived on the scene very soon after she was killed-so much so that it's been suggested that he was either the murderer himself, or at the very least he must have seen who the murderer was.
I agree he was disturbed probably by Andrews. The ripper was genius at avoiding just getting nicked. See stride, Nichols. He probably heard the pc coming and skidaddled.

McKenzie was a ripper victim. Very little doubt in my mind because of the hiked up dress like the rest. The superficial nature of the wound could be because of many things- the ripper was off his game, because he was drunk, sick weak, wasn't really hunting that night so didn't have his best blade and or disturbed etc.

ive seen a lot of people over the years ask whether the ripper was successful every time he went out to kill and my answer is of course not. No hunter is always going to be 100 successful every time you go out. You have these incomplete victims like stride, Nichols, and McKenzie and probably botched first attempt like mill wood, and I am sure there were time when he set out to kill and mutilate and came home empty handed for any number of reasons.
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quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #446  
Old 07-22-2017, 04:33 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Originally Posted by Varqm View Post
If the killer had a bolt hole why can't he bring the apron with him,and not drop it and give a hint on where he was heading?
It is entirely possible the apron was left where it was to insinuate which direction the killer went after leaving Mitre Square, misdirection or planting false evidence?

If you consider that as a possibility, then a message that insinuates Jewish blame for something might fit rather nicely. And be dangerous to the locals...which is evidently how the authorities interpreted it.
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  #447  
Old 07-22-2017, 11:21 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
It is entirely possible the apron was left where it was to insinuate which direction the killer went after leaving Mitre Square, misdirection or planting false evidence?

If you consider that as a possibility, then a message that insinuates Jewish blame for something might fit rather nicely. And be dangerous to the locals...which is evidently how the authorities interpreted it.
Yup. Maybe even trying to implicate Jewish members of the building.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #448  
Old 07-25-2017, 11:14 AM
Harry D Harry D is online now
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Its farcical that people start off with a conclusion and imagine a story that allows for it to be possible, instead of looking at individual crimes and the wide range of differing activities and circumstances, to say nothing of the physical evidence. Like watching the last 5 minutes of a movie then imagining what the movie was about and what the characters actually did.
Or perhaps, Michael, they examined the evidence, such as the obvious pattern of killings, and came to the same rational conclusion?

I'm not wedded to the canonical five. Making allowances for deviations in serial killer behaviour, interruptions, etc., I don't think you can categorically rule out any of the Whitechapel murder victims for Jack. All of them were 'motiveless', violent, unsolved murders with no clear suspect, all occurring in the same square mile or so. Whitechapel was no stranger to crime but historically this type of murder was not common. Something had to have triggered it. Were all of these women the victims of a convergence of evil or was it mainly the work of one violent individual on the loose?
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  #449  
Old 09-16-2017, 12:59 PM
DJA DJA is offline
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This is an inane thread, but none the less.....the reports say the apron piece was found ON Kates body, it doesn't say she was wearing it, nor that it was bunched up in her clothing that had been cut and pushed up. Maybe he cut and tore the apron off her for what he needed it for, and discarded the rest by or on her body.
Makes sense to me.

10 months later and Trevor is still at it.
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