Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Goulston Street Graffito: The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL - by Sam Flynn 1 hour and 6 minutes ago.
Goulston Street Graffito: The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL - by Sam Flynn 1 hour and 10 minutes ago.
Goulston Street Graffito: The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL - by Trevor Marriott 1 hour and 13 minutes ago.
Goulston Street Graffito: The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL - by harry 1 hour and 15 minutes ago.
Goulston Street Graffito: The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL - by Elamarna 2 hours ago.
Goulston Street Graffito: The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL - by Elamarna 2 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Goulston Street Graffito: The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL - (65 posts)
Maybrick, James: 25 YEARS OF THE DIARY OF JACK THE RIPPER: THE TRUE FACTS by Robert Smith - (15 posts)
Annie Chapman: Annie's scarf - (3 posts)
Casebook Announcements: Rip Don Souden - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Ann Nichols

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #191  
Old 07-17-2017, 12:01 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,671
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
But the press used various different terms to describe the examinations.

I think you are just playing semantics now. We agreed some time ago that a preliminary examination could be a visual one. You are not telling me that if Dr Phillips had spent a couple of minutes looking at the Kelly's body in the room before the photographs were taken that would have meant he had carried out a post-mortem are you?

That's just silly. I know what the words 'post-mortem' mean but A post-mortem is different from ANY examination.
Even today at least two different types of post-mortem are recognised, yet the same name is retained.

When the press referred to two different types of examination but called them both "post-mortem" (the first at 2 pm Friday, the second at 7.30 Saturday morning), there is bound to be confusion.
Good enough reason to apply different terminology.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #192  
Old 07-17-2017, 12:23 PM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 717
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
How long do you think it would have taken the photographer to take six photographs of the interior from different angles incidentally?
I've been wondering about this point... ever since the post about the environment not being conducive for photography.
__________________
there,s nothing new, only the unexplored
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #193  
Old 07-17-2017, 12:24 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,671
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
Yes of course that's a reasonable point but what I'm saying is that bearing in mind that the normal procedure is for an in-situ examination followed by a post-mortem examination in the mortuary can we be absolutely sure that this is not what happened at Miller's Court?

If you think we can be sure, then how?
Yes, normally there would be a cursory examination followed by a Coroners post-mortem.

The Coroners post-mortem occurred on Saturday morning, as recorded in the press.

Yet we are also dealing with two examinations mentioned by the press on Friday.
From what I understand you say there might be only one examination on Friday, yet you call it a post-mortem.

Phillips tells you that he conducted a subsequent examination on entering the room at 1.30 pm.
Yet Bond tells us a post-mortem began on Friday at 2 pm.

Where is your in-situ (cursory?) examination, if it isn't the one mentioned by Phillips?
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #194  
Old 07-17-2017, 12:30 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,880
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Even today at least two different types of post-mortem are recognised, yet the same name is retained.

When the press referred to two different types of examination but called them both "post-mortem" (the first at 2 pm Friday, the second at 7.30 Saturday morning), there is bound to be confusion.
Yes, and even more so when the Echo tells us that:

"Dr. Bond, of Westminster Hospital, is now...in the room with the other doctors; and the body is now being photographed. A post-mortem examination will afterwards be made in the same room."

So that, I think, takes us up to three examinations - or three post-mortems - in one day.

Although, according to the earlier London Evening Post of 9 November:

"Mr. Bond of Westminster Hospital, was in the room with the other doctors and the body was photographed. A post mortem examination will be made."

Which leaves open as to whether it was to be in the room or the mortuary.

But those are examples of why I'm not interested in what the press call it. I'm only interested in what the doctors called it.

And Dr Bond has a separate heading in his "report" of "Postmortem Examination" which to my mind creates the reasonable suspicion that his report refers to two separate examinations, possibly in two separate locations, in exactly the same way that Dr Phillips' report on the Mackenzie murder, to which you drew my attention, does.
__________________
Orsam Books
www.orsam.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #195  
Old 07-17-2017, 12:35 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,671
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post

Not at all. You don't seem to be au fait with proper academic standards. You cut out sections of text without making clear that you have done so and you repeatedly state assumptions as fact. I'm trying to help you here. I know it's only an internet forum but we should try and keep standards as high as possible don't you think?
Seeing as how you are quite adept with the search routine, perhaps you can locate any one time I have claimed these events as a 'fact'?

You can take this challenge as in the same vein as you claiming I have not produced sources.
Produce your source!!!
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #196  
Old 07-17-2017, 12:38 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,671
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
I did ask but I shouldn't have had to. Had you written it correctly in the first place I might not even have replied at all and we wouldn't have needed a 100 post discussion about it.
So if you did obtain your answer, what was the point of these repetitive questions on the same subject?
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #197  
Old 07-17-2017, 12:38 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,880
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Yes, normally there would be a cursory examination followed by a Coroners post-mortem.

The Coroners post-mortem occurred on Saturday morning, as recorded in the press.

Yet we are also dealing with two examinations mentioned by the press on Friday.
From what I understand you say there might be only one examination on Friday, yet you call it a post-mortem.
Can we just clarify that I'm not calling it that, I'm just trying to do my best to reflect what the doctors called it.

I thought I made clear some time ago that I originally took the expression "post-mortem examination" from Dr Bond's 10th November report (for the purposes of discussion let's refer to his 10th and 16th November reports). But it's possible that Dr Bond did not refer to the Friday examination as a post-mortem examination. If he didn't do that then I'm wondering if the only post-mortem was on the Saturday.

I don't have any definitive views. It's a suggestion. But it doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to me, especially if we forget everything in the newspapers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Phillips tells you that he conducted a subsequent examination on entering the room at 1.30 pm.
Yet Bond tells us a post-mortem began on Friday at 2 pm.
Not quite Jon, Phillips tells me that he concluded a subsequent examination at some unspecified time after entering the room at 1.30pm. So that could be 2pm.

And where does Bond tell us that a post-mortem began on Friday at 2pm?

Didn't you read my discussion of Bond's 10th November report in an earlier post?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Where is your in-situ (cursory?) examination, if it isn't the one mentioned by Phillips?
I'm suggesting the in situ examination - please forget the word "cursory" which no-one ever used Jon - was the one which occurred between 2pm and 4pm after the photographs had been taken (which activity, I suggest, commenced shortly after 1.30pm).
__________________
Orsam Books
www.orsam.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #198  
Old 07-17-2017, 12:39 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,880
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Seeing as how you are quite adept with the search routine, perhaps you can locate any one time I have claimed these events as a 'fact'?

You can take this challenge as in the same vein as you claiming I have not produced sources.
Produce your source!!!
Crikey not that again. I've already quoted the two examples twice in this very thread!
__________________
Orsam Books
www.orsam.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #199  
Old 07-17-2017, 12:40 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,880
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
So if you did obtain your answer, what was the point of these repetitive questions on the same subject?
Er... because you strongly challenged everything I said....oh and because it took about 50 posts for you to answer the other question I asked (namely what did you mean by "preliminary examination").
__________________
Orsam Books
www.orsam.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #200  
Old 07-17-2017, 12:44 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,671
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
But you are wrong! He simply does not say that. He does not say "After entering the room I made an examination". On the contrary, he speaks about entering the room then refers to his "subsequent examination".

It's one thing to form your own interpretation but another to misrepresent the evidence.
This is you playing semantics.
At what time does he say he conducted this subsequent examination?

Quote:
How long do you think it would have taken the photographer to take six photographs of the interior from different angles incidentally?
"Think"? - 15 minutes?
Who said there were "six"?
Some were taken outside, so we are told.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.