Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Shades of Whitechapel: Centenaries - whole and half - by Mayerling 1 hour and 27 minutes ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Was Ernest Dowson Jack the Ripper? - by Richard Patterson 2 hours ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Was Ernest Dowson Jack the Ripper? - by Pcdunn 2 hours ago.
Shades of Whitechapel: Centenaries - whole and half - by GUT 2 hours ago.
Thompson, Francis: Francis Thompson. The Perfect Suspect. - by Abby Normal 2 hours ago.
Ada Wilson: Ada Wilson attacker similar description to Ripper - by Chava 2 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Maybrick, James: Acquiring A Victorian Diary - (26 posts)
Tumblety, Francis: Tumblety - Hermaphrodite. - (11 posts)
General Discussion: Collaboration on Mitre Square and GSG? - (11 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Was Ernest Dowson Jack the Ripper? - (8 posts)
Witnesses: Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram? - (7 posts)
Mary Jane Kelly: A theory about some injuries! - (6 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1911  
Old 07-17-2017, 10:03 AM
Patrick S Patrick S is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 976
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Thanks Harry
I never considered Jacob levy a valid suspect before.Nothing ties him to the case. Until it was found that his cousin might be one of the mitre square witnesess.

Has it been conclusively established they were cousins? if so that's a bigee for me-because now he does have an actual connection to the case, even if its peripheral.
Hi, Abby. I'm interested in your mentioning a "connection to the case" as a metric to determine validity as a "suspect". Obviously, you feel that Cross has a connection in that he was recorded as having discovered Nichols' body, he appeared at the inquest, etc., and thus you feel he's a valid suspect.

I assume that you might initially view men like - to name only a few - John Richardson, George Hutchinson, perhaps Morris Eagle, and Joe Barnett with suspicion, as well. Perhaps excluding them for reasons that can't be applied to Cross. How is Cross a more likely killer than these men? What have you seen - beyond his connection to the case - that leads you to believe he may have been guilty of (at the very least) Nichols' murder?

I'm interested because I put little stock in "connection to the case", that is unless the connection leads somewhere. I feel as if searching the ledger for the names of witnesses to cast as the killer leads to the same kind of thing - though often not nearly as absurd - we've seen with well known individuals of the time being placed "under suspicion. Prince Albert. Gull. Sickert. Carrol. Van Gough. For me it seems as if we become guilty of shrinking the our world to a handful of people, all known to us, either through celebrity or some "connection to the case". Forgetting that about six million people lived in and around London in 1888.

My own perspective is quite different from yours. I feel as if "Jack the Ripper's" true name is one we haven't heard, and it's one we'll never learn. I'm far more intrigued by names that come to us because they committed violent acts, crimes, or were committed or incarcerated for mental illness. Then we search for connections to the case. A geographic connection. Some connection to a victim, etc. Names like Hyam Hyams. David Cohen. Kosmisky. Levy. These names hold more fascination for me than names like Lechmere. I put very little stock in ANY of them having been "the Ripper", but I still have some interest in them, if that makes sense.

Thanks.

Last edited by Patrick S : 07-17-2017 at 10:06 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1912  
Old 07-17-2017, 10:49 AM
John G John G is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,079
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
post #1505

"Were the abdominal wounds enough to kill? Probably, but in a timescale that would be longer than the neck"

That is in line with what I posted in #1749.

What Paul actually said was that potentially they could kill.

"However he doubted that the Aorta and Vena Cava would have been cut because of the depth of wound needed.
The other major vessels would in his opinion not kill fast enough to fit the time frame.

Basically he considers death by the abdominal wounds more unlikely than the neck."


How does that indicate an inability to read?


steve
Okay, this is in line with observations made by Dr Biggs. Thus in respect of Nichols Dr Biggs opined:

"A severe abdominal wound would 'contribute' to the rapidity of bleeding to death, but this effect could range from almost negligible (if the neck wounds were so bad that death would have been very quick, and the abdominal wounds didn't hit anything major) to very great (if the neck wounds miraculously missed all the major vessels, and the abdominal wounds pranged something big.)" (Marriott, 2013.)

Now, Paul has expressed doubt that something big was pranged, which I wrongly interpreted to mean unlikely, although, of course, doubt can simply mean uncertain.

Nonetheless, as far as I'm aware, Dr Llewellyn doesn't mention serious damage to major vessels in the abdomen, I.e. the aorta and the inferior vena cava, which suggests to me that death was as a consequence of the neck rather than the abdominal wounds.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1913  
Old 07-17-2017, 11:02 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South london
Posts: 3,709
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John G View Post
Okay, this is in line with observations made by Dr Biggs. Thus in respect of Nichols Dr Biggs opined:

"A severe abdominal wound would 'contribute' to the rapidity of bleeding to death, but this effect could range from almost negligible (if the neck wounds were so bad that death would have been very quick, and the abdominal wounds didn't hit anything major) to very great (if the neck wounds miraculously missed all the major vessels, and the abdominal wounds pranged something big.)" (Marriott, 2013.)

Now, Paul has expressed doubt that something big was pranged, which I wrongly interpreted to mean unlikely, although, of course, doubt can simply mean uncertain.

Nonetheless, as far as I'm aware, Dr Llewellyn doesn't mention serious damage to major vessels in the abdomen, I.e. the aorta and the inferior vena cava, which suggests to me that death was as a consequence of the neck rather than the abdominal wounds.

John

I agree with that.


Steve
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1914  
Old 07-17-2017, 11:10 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,293
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Hi Abby

Edition 124.

Steve
thanks el!
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1915  
Old 07-17-2017, 11:14 AM
John G John G is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,079
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
John

I agree with that.


Steve
Thanks Steve.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1916  
Old 07-17-2017, 11:16 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
Inactive
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,407
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John G View Post
Okay, this is in line with observations made by Dr Biggs. Thus in respect of Nichols Dr Biggs opined:

"A severe abdominal wound would 'contribute' to the rapidity of bleeding to death, but this effect could range from almost negligible (if the neck wounds were so bad that death would have been very quick, and the abdominal wounds didn't hit anything major) to very great (if the neck wounds miraculously missed all the major vessels, and the abdominal wounds pranged something big.)" (Marriott, 2013.)

Now, Paul has expressed doubt that something big was pranged, which I wrongly interpreted to mean unlikely, although, of course, doubt can simply mean uncertain.

Nonetheless, as far as I'm aware, Dr Llewellyn doesn't mention serious damage to major vessels in the abdomen, I.e. the aorta and the inferior vena cava, which suggests to me that death was as a consequence of the neck rather than the abdominal wounds.
If some cutting was interrupted it was not the cutting of the neck.

Pierre
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1917  
Old 07-17-2017, 11:37 AM
Henry Flower Henry Flower is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Hackney Wick
Posts: 1,069
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
If some cutting was interrupted it was not the cutting of the neck.

Pierre
Hi Pierre. On what historical data do you base that assumption, please?

Best

HF
__________________
What should I do at Rome? I have not learnt
The art of lying


Decimus Iunius Iuvenalis - Satire III
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1918  
Old 07-17-2017, 11:41 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,293
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick S View Post
Hi, Abby. I'm interested in your mentioning a "connection to the case" as a metric to determine validity as a "suspect". Obviously, you feel that Cross has a connection in that he was recorded as having discovered Nichols' body, he appeared at the inquest, etc., and thus you feel he's a valid suspect.


My own perspective is quite different from yours. I feel as if "Jack the Ripper's" true name is one we haven't heard, and it's one we'll never learn. I'm far more intrigued by names that come to us because they committed violent acts, crimes, or were committed or incarcerated for mental illness. Then we search for connections to the case. A geographic connection. Some I'm interested because I put little stock in "connection to the case", that is unless the connection leads somewhere. I feel as if searching the ledger for the names of witnesses to cast as the killer leads to the same kind of thing - though often not nearly as absurd - we've seen with well known individuals of the time being placed "under suspicion. Prince Albert. Gull. Sickert. Carrol. Van Gough. For me it seems as if we become guilty of shrinking the our world to a handful of people, all known to us, either through celebrity or some "connection to the case". Forgetting that about six million people lived in and around London in 1888.

connection to a victim, etc. Names like Hyam Hyams. David Cohen. Kosmisky. Levy. These names hold more fascination for me than names like Lechmere. I put very little stock in ANY of them having been "the Ripper", but I still have some interest in them, if that makes sense.

Thanks.
Hi patrick

Quote:
Hi, Abby. I'm interested in your mentioning a "connection to the case" as a metric to determine validity as a "suspect". Obviously, you feel that Cross has a connection in that he was recorded as having discovered Nichols' body, he appeared at the inquest, etc., and thus you feel he's a valid suspect.
yes. hes also the only witness/suspect whos seen near a victims body before he raises the alarm, has a discrepancy with a PC, used a different name, and has close geographic connection to the victims. as I think torso man and the ripper were more than likely the same person age wise he fits the bill for that also.

I think its very easy to pick any person out that has absolutely nothing to do with the case and fit them up to be the ripper. at the very least to me, before anything else, they need to have been proved to have at least been in London at the time, and secondly to have some sort of physical connection to the case to even consider them-but that's just me.

Quote:
I assume that you might initially view men like - to name only a few - John Richardson, George Hutchinson, perhaps Morris Eagle, and Joe Barnett with suspicion, as well. Perhaps excluding them for reasons that can't be applied to Cross. How is Cross a more likely killer than these men? What have you seen - beyond his connection to the case - that leads you to believe he may have been guilty of (at the very least) Nichols' murder?
I absolutely consider men like Richardson, hutch and Barnett with suspicion. Hutch is 1a (along with blotchy-1b) as my favored suspects and Richardson and barnet in my second tier of possible candidates. don't know about eagle though-feel free to enlighten me about him though. I actually have lech on par with Richardson, but Barnett slightly above and hutch way above. as for reasons see above response.

Quote:
I'm interested because I put little stock in "connection to the case", that is unless the connection leads somewhere. I feel as if searching the ledger for the names of witnesses to cast as the killer leads to the same kind of thing - though often not nearly as absurd - we've seen with well known individuals of the time being placed "under suspicion. Prince Albert. Gull. Sickert. Carrol. Van Gough. For me it seems as if we become guilty of shrinking the our world to a handful of people, all known to us, either through celebrity or some "connection to the case". Forgetting that about six million people lived in and around London in 1888.
the people you mention here have no connection to the case. the witnesses do. many killers, serial killers have initially only been thought of as witnesses and they turn out to be the killer. History has taught us this.

Along with that-They have the physical connection that puts them in whole different circle as the absurd suspects you mention or other non famous ones that you really cant tie to the case at all.

its also why I wouldn't even consider Jacob levy before it was discovered he might be related to one of the mitre square witnesses.

In his case it was the wild goose chase started by Anderson, via Fido, that I Think set too many people off looking for a crazy Jew to fit up as the ripper.

Quote:
My own perspective is quite different from yours. I feel as if "Jack the Ripper's" true name is one we haven't heard, and it's one we'll never learn. I'm far more intrigued by names that come to us because they committed violent acts, crimes, or were committed or incarcerated for mental illness. Then we search for connections to the case. A geographic connection. Some connection to a victim, etc. Names like Hyam Hyams. David Cohen. Kosmisky. Levy. These names hold more fascination for me than names like Lechmere. I put very little stock in ANY of them having been "the Ripper", but I still have some interest in them, if that makes sense.
That's fine. and an interesting way to go-I fully embrace it. if it yields any connection. if not, I put almost zero credence in it. like I did with Levy-but now I do. Kos is in my first tier because he has a connection to the case-a possible ID and a suspect at the time. Cohen-no. too convoluted an idea. Hyam Hyams? enlighten me-why is he a suspect?
again a lot of the jewish suspects were found because of the witch hunt I believe started after Anderson and Fido. as you can see this aspect of suspectology sticks in my craw abit. sorry.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1919  
Old 07-17-2017, 12:00 PM
Harry D Harry D is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,006
Default

How many known serial killers had a connection to the case before they were ultimately caught?
__________________
Hail to the king, baby!
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1920  
Old 07-17-2017, 12:13 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: The West Midlands
Posts: 1,032
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
How many known serial killers had a connection to the case before they were ultimately caught?
Good point Harry

Regards
Herlock
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.