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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Hutchinson, George

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  #1151  
Old 06-19-2017, 04:21 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Bridewell View Post
I speak only for myself and my post was tongue-in-cheek as I'm sure you must realise. Opinion is divided over Hutchinson, as in so much else on this forum.



I've not seen a paper which includes the exact wording of his statement but if you can show me one that does I'll concede that he probably cribbed it.
Ok sorry. Those nuances are missed sometimes when written.
In terms of his wording being suspiciously similar to what was in the papers, earlier in this thread and in previous threads direct comparisons are made and they're to similar to be coincidence in my opinion. "The murdered woman Kelly" etc. is one I remember Off hand.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #1152  
Old 06-19-2017, 04:23 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Bridewell View Post
I've not seen a paper which includes the exact wording of his statement but if you can show me one that does I'll concede that he probably cribbed it.
Papers, plural, and not exactly exact. However, a case could be made for his having elaborated on previous press reports.
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  #1153  
Old 06-19-2017, 04:51 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Ok sorry. Those nuances are missed sometimes when written.
In terms of his wording being suspiciously similar to what was in the papers, earlier in this thread and in previous threads direct comparisons are made and they're to similar to be coincidence in my opinion. "The murdered woman Kelly" etc. is one I remember Off hand.
How does that work Abby?

"I'll rehearse phrases already published in the press, and commit them to memory, to make my story more believable"????

Hutchinson can't put a simple phrase together now?
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  #1154  
Old 06-19-2017, 10:01 PM
andy1867 andy1867 is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Yes, some members have tried to make a case for Hutchinson using a few details from a handful of press reports to create his story. Which is a funny position to take, as if anyone needs to read the papers to "invent" a well-dressed man. However, the more unique details like gaiters, horse-shoe tie-pin, Astrachan collars & cuffs, thick gold chain with red seal, etc., are nowhere to be found in print, associated with the victim, over that weekend.

So we are supposed to believe Hutchinson was too dumb to come up with a "well-dressed" character of his own, but then had sufficient imagination to give this man some very noticeable accoutrements.
Sounds like another silly idea to me.
Some people are so desperate to have him pictured as a liar they invent these ridiculous scenario's.
Or
He could have been simply worried that he had been seen near the murder site and supposed that if he used a description that was similar to to other descriptions they would validate each other and throw the light of suspicion on that character.
Doesn't make him dumb doesn't make him guilty, makes him maybe worried though.
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  #1155  
Old 06-20-2017, 12:36 AM
FrankO FrankO is offline
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Exactly my thoughts, Andy. He may very well have come up with the idea of using bits & pieces from other descriptions to make it more believable and give him the golden watch, horse-shoe tie-pin, gaiters etc. to make him so outstanding (with regards to Kelly as well) to explain why he took notice of him in the first place and why it wasn’t odd to keep a good eye on the man and follow the couple. Smart rather than dumb, I'd say.

All the best,
Frank
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  #1156  
Old 06-20-2017, 02:43 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I disagree, Jon, inasmuch as Mr Astrakhan was sporting rather more than just a white collar and cuffs, wasn't he?
I am with you on this point Sam, the description contains articles that have legitimate and immediate value to a thief,..although... even clothing was used as currency during those years, so the idea that someone might just steal clothing from someone isn't farfetched. Hard to pawn once reported in the papers.
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  #1157  
Old 06-20-2017, 04:33 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
How does that work Abby?

"I'll rehearse phrases already published in the press, and commit them to memory, to make my story more believable"????

Hutchinson can't put a simple phrase together now?
Hi wick
I think when he was getting his descriptions of the various suspects in the papers he also picked up on the actual phrasing and used it either consciously (maybe to sound more "official" when speaking to the police) or subconsciously.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #1158  
Old 06-20-2017, 04:57 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Originally Posted by andy1867 View Post
Or
He could have been simply worried that he had been seen near the murder site and supposed that if he used a description that was similar to to other descriptions they would validate each other and throw the light of suspicion on that character.
Doesn't make him dumb doesn't make him guilty, makes him maybe worried though.
Question: If Hutchinson was indeed Wideawake and not at the Inquest, what would he have to fear about being "seen" near the murder? The eyewitness who saw Wideawake never had a chance to identify Hutchinson, and likely couldn't do so even if he had presented himself to all the witnesses at the Inquest. Someone saw someone, that's all there is really.

He had no reason to come forward at all if he feared anything. So...we ask ourselves, why did he come forward"? Why would he make a claim that places him in the shoes of a man seen, as you say, lurking near a soon to be murder scene? Can we be certain he knew Mary Kelly as he claimed...no. Can we be certain that he was Wideawake...no. Can we be certain that he saw Mary Kelly outside of her room after the time it went silent and dark...no. Can we be certain he saw a respectably dressed person with Mary...no.

The only thing that bears investigation is why he chose to do what he did. If he was covering for someone..or he intended to create an impression that Wideawake, a figure that is largely responsible for a Pardon Offer on Saturday, was actually someone who was a friend of Mary and looking out for her interests, that would lead to further investigation as to whom he was protecting...but if he just wanted a piece of the "limelight"...like so many others in these cases, then he can be discarded just like he was shortly after making his statement.
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  #1159  
Old 06-20-2017, 05:06 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Question: If Hutchinson was indeed Wideawake and not at the Inquest, what would he have to fear about being "seen" near the murder? The eyewitness who saw Wideawake never had a chance to identify Hutchinson, and likely couldn't do so even if he had presented himself to all the witnesses at the Inquest. Someone saw someone, that's all there is really.

He had no reason to come forward at all if he feared anything. So...we ask ourselves, why did he come forward"? Why would he make a claim that places him in the shoes of a man seen, as you say, lurking near a soon to be murder scene? Can we be certain he knew Mary Kelly as he claimed...no. Can we be certain that he was Wideawake...no. Can we be certain that he saw Mary Kelly outside of her room after the time it went silent and dark...no. Can we be certain he saw a respectably dressed person with Mary...no.

The only thing that bears investigation is why he chose to do what he did. If he was covering for someone..or he intended to create an impression that Wideawake, a figure that is largely responsible for a Pardon Offer on Saturday, was actually someone who was a friend of Mary and looking out for her interests, that would lead to further investigation as to whom he was protecting...but if he just wanted a piece of the "limelight"...like so many others in these cases, then he can be discarded just like he was shortly after making his statement.
Because if he thought he had been spotted probably by Sarah Lewis, whether guilty of anything or not, he may have thought she knew who he was and felt he had better come forward voluntarily rather than being looked for by police.

Or simply she had nothing to do with him coming forward and he was looking for personal gain.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #1160  
Old 06-20-2017, 06:10 AM
andy1867 andy1867 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Question: If Hutchinson was indeed Wideawake and not at the Inquest, what would he have to fear about being "seen" near the murder? The eyewitness who saw Wideawake never had a chance to identify Hutchinson, and likely couldn't do so even if he had presented himself to all the witnesses at the Inquest. Someone saw someone, that's all there is really.

He had no reason to come forward at all if he feared anything. So...we ask ourselves, why did he come forward"? Why would he make a claim that places him in the shoes of a man seen, as you say, lurking near a soon to be murder scene? Can we be certain he knew Mary Kelly as he claimed...no. Can we be certain that he was Wideawake...no. Can we be certain that he saw Mary Kelly outside of her room after the time it went silent and dark...no. Can we be certain he saw a respectably dressed person with Mary...no.

The only thing that bears investigation is why he chose to do what he did. If he was covering for someone..or he intended to create an impression that Wideawake, a figure that is largely responsible for a Pardon Offer on Saturday, was actually someone who was a friend of Mary and looking out for her interests, that would lead to further investigation as to whom he was protecting...but if he just wanted a piece of the "limelight"...like so many others in these cases, then he can be discarded just like he was shortly after making his statement.
No doubt a good question Michael,but only Hutchinson could answer it really.
Whether he thought he might have been seen and thought it better to give his statement ? I honestly don't know
As you say the only thing that bears investigation is why he chose to do what he did
Which brings us back to your first question doesn't it ?

I posited that maybe he thought he had been seen and felt he had to get his story in,whether he used newspapers from the previous day to embellish it...I have no idea, why he would do that ? No idea. ...There, again it's all conjecture isn't it
Many thanks for your answer though
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