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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Police Officials and Procedures > Swanson, Chief Inspector Donald

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  #61  
Old 06-19-2017, 11:44 AM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Whilst holding the utmost respect for the career of Donald Sutherland Swanson, it has always jarred with me that the confrontation ID which he reports in the Marginalia took place so far away from London. I have taken to wondering whether DSS may have been mistaken in his recall of the venue (especially if not present in person). To this end I have done some, admittedly cursory, research as to whether or not there might have been an alternative location, amenable to both Met & City Forces, closer to London which might have served the purpose and have been erroneously alluded to, years later, as "the Seaside Home".

"Police Orphanage (Metropolitan and City)

Twickenham - President, Col. Sir Charles Warren, C.G.M.G.; Vice Presidents, Lieut-Col. Pearson, A.C. Bruce Esq., J. Monro Esq. and Col. Sir James Fraser K.C.B. (City Police); Chairman of Board of Managers & Treasurer, Lt-Col Monsell; Sec. Arthur J. Kestin."


This reads like a Who's Who of the London Police at that time and I suspect, therefore, that the presence of even very senior officers at such an out of town location might have passed unremarked. Perhaps the suspect was "sent with difficulty", not because of his own circumstances, but because the orphans had to be packed off to the seaside for the day. (Colney Hatch to Brighton would have been about 75 miles via the more direct route then available; Colney Hatch to Twickenham about 20 miles.)
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  #62  
Old 06-19-2017, 12:49 PM
Monty Monty is offline
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Your post interested me enough to lull me out of semi retirement Colin.

As you may be aware, Adam Wood and I have worked closely with the Met & City Orphans Fund (the successor to the orphanage) and have viewed their records. Whilst we have not gone through all with a fine tooth comb as yet, we haven't noted any reference to the orphanage being used in such a way at any stage. It seems the place was used solely for the orphans, with police officialdom being limited to VIP visits, charity events and committee meetings. We've not seen anything with reference to police work, though I admit it's unlikely such a covert operation would be recorded in the orphanages records.

That's not to say I dismiss the idea. It's certainly a new one on me, and worth looking in to.

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Ps. I hope you are well chap.
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  #63  
Old 06-19-2017, 01:21 PM
Robert Robert is offline
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Interesting idea, Colin.

I've just looked at the orphanage in the 1891 census, and there were 250 children.

I reckon if they'd locked Kosminski in with them, he'd have confessed.
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  #64  
Old 06-19-2017, 01:24 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Your post interested me enough to lull me out of semi retirement Colin.

As you may be aware, Adam Wood and I have worked closely with the Met & City Orphans Fund (the successor to the orphanage) and have viewed their records. Whilst we have not gone through all with a fine tooth comb as yet, we haven't noted any reference to the orphanage being used in such a way at any stage. It seems the place was used solely for the orphans, with police officialdom being limited to VIP visits, charity events and committee meetings. We've not seen anything with reference to police work, though I admit it's unlikely such a covert operation would be recorded in the orphanages records.

That's not to say I dismiss the idea. It's certainly a new one on me, and worth looking in to.

Regards
Monty

Ps. I hope you are well chap.
Thanks, Neil. I'm glad I posted it now as I wasn't sure how it would be received. I looked at the direct route from Colney Hatch to Brighton and it seems to me that it would pass right through the middle of London. Why. if Kosminski was the suspect and Colney Hatch his location, would you send him, in effect past your own front door, to an obscure location on the south coast. To me (and it may be just me) that doesn't make sense.
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  #65  
Old 06-19-2017, 01:27 PM
Monty Monty is offline
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Maybe the issue lays with the witness rather than the suspect Colin?

Monty
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  #66  
Old 06-19-2017, 01:29 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Forgot to say that I wasn't aware of yours and Adam's involvement with the Orphans' Fund or that you had had access to their records. I take it you've seen no entry recording a hastily arranged day at the seaside for all the boys and girls then.
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  #67  
Old 06-19-2017, 01:35 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Maybe the issue lays with the witness rather than the suspect Colin?

Monty
That's the only plausible reason I could come up with for seeing the actual Seaside Home as a logical choice; namely that the witness was in or near Brighton and it was thought easier to take Kosminski to the witness than the witness to Kosminski. I can't see either Schwartz or Lawende being a good fit for that scenario though. Can I PM you with another idea?
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  #68  
Old 06-19-2017, 01:38 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Interesting idea, Colin.

I've just looked at the orphanage in the 1891 census, and there were 250 children.

I reckon if they'd locked Kosminski in with them, he'd have confessed.
250 would indicate a very large vehicle - or a train a la St Trinians.
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  #69  
Old 06-19-2017, 01:39 PM
Monty Monty is offline
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Sure.

Honestly speaking, that's the only valid reason I can think of.

I also think people get too hung up on the 'official' aspect of this event.

Monty
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  #70  
Old 06-19-2017, 01:51 PM
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Colin, I could suggest an extremely large vehicle but I won't.
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