Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by Sam Flynn 59 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by RockySullivan 60 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by Sam Flynn 1 hour and 14 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by RockySullivan 1 hour and 17 minutes ago.
Visual Media: New play about Jack the Ripper (Denver, CO) - by emlodik 2 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by RockySullivan 7 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - (69 posts)
Scene of the Crimes: Bucks Row Project - (1 posts)
Visual Media: New play about Jack the Ripper (Denver, CO) - (1 posts)
Martha Tabram: Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Media > Audio -- Visual > Rippercast

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #171  
Old 05-19-2017, 06:08 AM
jmenges jmenges is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,225
Default

As an aside, Tumblety is the only suspect (besides Pizer) that we know of who were we can positively say that they were aware that they were a suspect. And I guess that's what makes the timing of his "disemboweling" comment relevant. Whereas, if it was found in an asylum report that Kozminski had said "all night walkers should be disemboweled" in say 1894, it would be a pretty significant find. But since we know Tumblety was cognizant of the fact he was a police suspect it seems like we're saying we can throw the comment away if it was made post 1888. Even if he said it in mid-December 88 or early January 89.

Interesting.

JM

Last edited by jmenges : 05-19-2017 at 06:12 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #172  
Old 05-19-2017, 06:27 AM
Ally Ally is offline
WWotW
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,161
Default

Well yes and that's my exact argument. So being that, as the key passage happens all of a piece as he says it: Tumblety said prostitutes should be disemboweled, he was disturbed because he knew of the prostitute murders so went to the police, do we have a record of when he went to the police and what if anything he said? I doubt there's any transcription that can be found but it would certainly be interesting.

But the way y'all want to read it is: completely independent of anything, Norris reads about the prostitute murders in England, and because of recollection of a conversation with a man he has no way of knowing is even in England at the time, he goes to the police and makes a report. Why would he do that?

He remembers a conversation he had with a man in New Orleans about disemboweling prostitutes 8 years ago, and without any reason to think this guy is in England, goes and reports to the police about this conversation about something that happened in New Orleans.

What? I am sorry, that makes zero sense. What did he have to connect Tumblety to England at the time he supposedly read the papers since you're assuming that the conversation and the report didn't happen one after the other.

He just randomly on his own decided to connect Tumblety to England?

The conversation with Tumblety about being in England when the murders occurred didn't happen until AFTER he said he already reported to the police.

So the way you guys want to read it is:

In 1881, Tumblety says he wants prostitutes to be disemboweled.

8 years later, Norris reads about murders happening in England and decides to go report Tumblety... even though there is literally nothing linking Tumblety to England at the time he would be making this report.
__________________

Let all Oz be agreed;
I'm Wicked through and through.

Last edited by Ally : 05-19-2017 at 06:30 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #173  
Old 05-19-2017, 06:27 AM
Robert Robert is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,655
Default

Interesting that he says 'disembowelled' and not 'ripped up' or similar. Nothing can be read into it, but my impression is that the bowels were not a target but an impediment.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #174  
Old 05-19-2017, 06:51 AM
Steadmund Brand Steadmund Brand is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Buffalo New York area
Posts: 510
Default

Actually Ally... he was "close" with Tumblety, and he knew he went to England every year, and that he came to Mardi Gras every year, AND he said he told him he was in England at the time...so he did have plenty to connect him to England.. again....I think, he mentioned the disemboweling in 1881.. only because he said it when he "threatened" Norris, took his cigarette away and said what he did about Smoking and Night walkers being bad....then in 1888-1889 when he said he read about the killings and Tumblety told him he was there at the time Norris "got freaked" (which I don't get.. he freaks out at that.. but not in 1881 when he locked him in a room at knife point and attempted to "rape" him.....strange don't ya think????)
my guess is (and this is JUST A GUESS as we have no proof) is that....the murders happen...Norris read about it like everyone else in the world, when he see's Tumblety again he asks him about them, ya know like "hey, you go to England... did you hear anything about these" and when Tumblety confirmed he was there Norris went to the police and said this guy once told me that night walkers should be disemboweled and he has these knives and he WAS in England when it happened....he may be "Jack the Ripper" can I have a reward now? (I think that is the kind of character Norris was)

Steadmund Brand
__________________
"The truth is what is, and what should be is a fantasy. A terrible, terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago."- Lenny Bruce
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #175  
Old 05-19-2017, 07:03 AM
Ally Ally is offline
WWotW
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,161
Default

Actually he wasn't close to Tumblety and there is nothing to indicate that he knew he went to England or that he knew he was in England until Tumblety told him that he'd been there.... after he already had reported it to the police. He asked him about the Whitechapel business, after he said he had already reported it to the police. His narrative went: Tumblety said that about the disembowelment, he'd already heard of the murders. He went to the police, the police said he matched the description, he asked about the murders to Tumblety, Tumblety said he'd been in England at the time, and then Norris tried to shun him.

Close people don't mention how many times they tried to shun you during the course of your relationship.

He says that when Tumblety would come to Mardi Gras, he'd send him a note, letting him know he was in town. He says Tumblety never told him of his family or anything else.

They weren't "close".

There is nothing in his description of their relationship that indicates closeness or confidences or anything other than acquaintances who knew each other and who would meet up, so Tumblety could buy him things every Mardis Gras.

And it still doesn't make sense that he would just randomly connect an off hand comment to a man he knew to be gay, to a woman killer in England based on literally nothing else than an offhand comment 8 years prior. Not enough to warrant a trip to the police.
__________________

Let all Oz be agreed;
I'm Wicked through and through.

Last edited by Ally : 05-19-2017 at 07:18 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #176  
Old 05-19-2017, 07:27 AM
Robert Robert is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,655
Default

Hi Stead

Surely Norris would have just said to the police "You know that Tumblety guy who arrived from England under a cloud? Well...."

Why would Norris say "He answers the description"?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #177  
Old 05-19-2017, 07:33 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,088
Default

I don't know about anyone else, but this is pretty big IMHO.

sworn testimony from someone who knew him well, saying he had knives and surgical equipment, that prostitutes should be disemboweled, confirms his hate of women. Hes obviously a sexually frustrated individual.

Id never had T very high on my list but this has to bump him up, does it not??

added to above, he was there at the time and was a police suspect.

I still have my main caveats though- killers usually target the object of there sexual desire, and T was gay soooo. Was he possibly Bi?

also, none of the witnesses describe a large man-None.

but what another completely bizarre fascinating side issue/submystery involving the ripper case!!??!
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #178  
Old 05-19-2017, 07:56 AM
Steadmund Brand Steadmund Brand is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Buffalo New York area
Posts: 510
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ally View Post

Close people don't mention how many times they tried to shun you during the course of your relationship.

He says that when Tumblety would come to Mardi Gras, he'd send him a note, letting him know he was in town. He says Tumblety never told him of his family or anything else.

They weren't "close".

There is nothing in his description of their relationship that indicates closeness or confidences or anything other than acquaintances who knew each other and who would meet up, so Tumblety could buy him things every Mardis Gras.

=.
I don't understand how you can definitively say the weren't close.. I can't say for sure they were... but you seem to imply that without question, 100% for sure they were not....how? There IS something in the description of their relationship that indicates it (at least from one side).. the length of time and years it spanned....Look if it were just sex, there were PLENTY of "hustlers" around, especially Mardi Gras, that Tumblety could have "had".. especially knowing his proclivity, younger ones at that...and if it were just have an acquaintance...seriously? in New Orleans... at Mardi Gras...when you are rich? that doesn't add up... "close" does not always mean "confidences" by any means....and it could have been a totally one sided "closeness" with Norris just in it for the free swag

As for mentioning the shunning... well, seems like Norris again trying to make himself look like a good guy...when (we both agree) he really comes across more like a scumbag (see we do agree on some things that and Vodka based drinks!!!)

Also, remember, Tumblety NEVER talked about family.. so that is no surprise... but he loved to brag about England and being important to people.. so that seems pretty reasonable to me

Steadmund Brand

P.S when we do all get together remember the first drink is on me!!
__________________
"The truth is what is, and what should be is a fantasy. A terrible, terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago."- Lenny Bruce
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #179  
Old 05-19-2017, 07:59 AM
Steadmund Brand Steadmund Brand is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Buffalo New York area
Posts: 510
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post

I still have my main caveats though- killers usually target the object of there sexual desire, and T was gay soooo. Was he possibly Bi?

but what another completely bizarre fascinating side issue/submystery involving the ripper case!!??!
Well depends... on if you believe he was inter-sexed or micro penis....inter sexed that wouldn't make him gay really would it

Steadmund Brand
__________________
"The truth is what is, and what should be is a fantasy. A terrible, terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago."- Lenny Bruce
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #180  
Old 05-19-2017, 08:14 AM
Ally Ally is offline
WWotW
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,161
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steadmund Brand View Post
I don't understand how you can definitively say the weren't close.. I can't say for sure they were... but you seem to imply that without question, 100% for sure they were not....how?
Can I definitively state that they weren't close? No. But there was nothing in anything he said that indicated closeness. He refused him often and seemed to view him mostly as a means to an end.

But what I can state is that Norris didn't know Tumblety was in England at the time of the Whitechapel murders until Tumblety told him he had been...after Norris had already gone to the police. And I can state that, because that's the narrative he gave.

So there would have been no reason for Norris to read about the prositute murders and immediately connect it to Tumblety. Based on an offhand comment years before.


Quote:
P.S when we do all get together remember the first drink is on me!!

Ooh in that case I'm ordering a shot of Cognac Croizet Cuvée Leonie 1858.


(yes I googled to find out the world's most expensive shot.)
__________________

Let all Oz be agreed;
I'm Wicked through and through.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.