Oh, murder!

[Pierre]

Are you suggesting that newspapers speculated as to what was said at inquests, rather than report the proceedings verbatim? What's your evidence for this?

"Speculation": definition (Cambridge):

the activity of guessing possible answers to a question without having enough information to be certain

"Speculation": relevant example (Western Times - Friday 16 November 1888):

[David Orsam]

"Speculation": definition (Cambridge):

the activity of guessing possible answers to a question without having enough information to be certain

"Speculation": relevant example (Western Times - Friday 16 November 1888):

My dear boy, could you enlighten us as to how that extract from the Western Times is an example of speculation?

[John G]

"Speculation": definition (Cambridge):

the activity of guessing possible answers to a question without having enough information to be certain

"Speculation": relevant example (Western Times - Friday 16 November 1888):

I have no idea of what this post means, especially as regards relevancy. Thanks for the Western Times reference, although it seems a bit of a random citation!

[DJA]

My dear boy, could you enlighten us as to how that extract from the Western Times is an example of speculation?

Elizabeth Prater being a "he" does it for me

[John G]

Elizabeth Prater being a "he" does it for me

I think that's what's called a typo: a modern equivalent would be a predictive text error, a phenomenon that keeps impacting on my posts!

[Pierre]

My dear boy, could you enlighten us as to how that extract from the Western Times is an example of speculation?

According to yourself

"What I posted was corroborating evidence that the cry of murder was a frequent one in the neighbourhood of Whitechapel, as Prater said, thus reducing the probability that the one heard in the early hours of 9 November by residents around Millers Court had anything to do with Kelly's murder."

and others who believe that cries of murder was "frequent", that believe is established on statements from Prater in various sources that she frequently heard such cries of murder.

This newspaper reporting from the inquest is contradictory and says it was uncommon.

That can be interpreted as a guess, i.e. speculation.

[DJA]

Is that one of those smart phone thingies?

[David Orsam]

That can be interpreted as a guess, i.e. speculation.

My dear boy, I think you will find that is a typographical error in the sense that the word "not" has been accidentally omitted. It's very much like the use of the word "he" in the report where the letter "s" would appear to have omitted. I don't think the reporter was speculating that Prater was a man. Or perhaps he was, what do you think my dear fellow?

[John G]

Actually, what exactly is the "Western Times?" I've never heard of the publication

[Pierre]

My dear boy, I think you will find that is a typographical error in the sense that the word "not" has been accidentally omitted. It's very much like the use of the word "he" in the report where the letter "s" would appear to have omitted. I don't think the reporter was speculating that Prater was a man. Or perhaps he was, what do you think my dear fellow?

Everything that you do not like is a typographical error.

[David Orsam]

Everything that you do not like is a typographical error.

I'm not sure I follow you my dear boy. Are you saying I don't like Prater being a woman?

Oh, you are probably referring to the "not uncommon" thing. Well my dear boy, all the other newspaper reports record that Prater said the cry was not uncommon, or words to that effect. Her deposition records a statement "I frequently hear such cries from the back of the lodging-house" so the obvious conclusion is that the Western Times report should have said "not uncommon". It might have been a typo, it might have been the reporter mishearing, or it might be that the reporter phoned the report in to his paper and the person writing it down misheard, you know my dear boy, all those sorts of reasons I gave you earlier. The one thing I would say it is certainly not, my dear boy, is any form of speculation.

[Pierre]

I'm not sure I follow you my dear boy. Are you saying I don't like Prater being a woman?

Oh, you are probably referring to the "not uncommon" thing. Well my dear boy, all the other newspaper reports record that Prater said the cry was not uncommon, or words to that effect. Her deposition records a statement "I frequently hear such cries from the back of the lodging-house" so the obvious conclusion is that the Western Times report should have said "not uncommon". It might have been a typo, it might have been the reporter mishearing, or it might be that the reporter phoned the report in to his paper and the person writing it down misheard, you know my dear boy, all those sorts of reasons I gave you earlier. The one thing I would say it is certainly not, my dear boy, is any form of speculation.

Clearly you are fully and intensely aware of the fact that what you say is just your own personal opinion, since - as you told us on the forum - you do not have any sources for your own assumptions.

[David Orsam]

Clearly you are fully and intensely aware of the fact that what you say is just your own personal opinion, since - as you told us on the forum - you do not have any sources for your own assumptions.

Oh my dear boy, how delightfully you put your response, but I do have sources which prove that the omission of the word "not" in the Western Times was nothing more than a typographical error.

For we can find an otherwise identically worded report (with "she" instead of "he") in both the Dundee Courier and the Cork Constitution of the same date, 13 November 1888. Thus:

"Elizabeth Prater, living in the room over the deceased, stated that some time on Thursday night she heard a single scream of "murder". That was not an uncommon incident. Another woman in the court also heard the scream."

This report also appeared in the Macclesfield Courier and Herald of 17 November as can be found on the press reports section of this site:

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/macclesfield_courier/881117.html?

So it was nothing more than an agency report which was incorrectly reproduced in the Western Times. No speculation or fabrication of any kind. Only a typo.

[Pierre]

Oh my dear boy, how delightfully you put your response, but I do have sources which prove that the omission of the word "not" in the Western Times was nothing more than a typographical error.

For we can find an otherwise identically worded report (with "she" instead of "he") in both the Dundee Courier and the Cork Constitution of the same date, 13 November 1888. Thus:

"Elizabeth Prater, living in the room over the deceased, stated that some time on Thursday night she heard a single scream of "murder". That was not an uncommon incident. Another woman in the court also heard the scream."

This report also appeared in the Macclesfield Courier and Herald of 17 November as can be found on the press reports section of this site:

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/macclesfield_courier/881117.html?

So it was nothing more than an agency report which was incorrectly reproduced in the Western Times. No speculation or fabrication of any kind. Only a typo.

Congratulations on starting to use sources for your opinions, David.

[David Orsam]

Congratulations on starting to use sources for your opinions, David.

Oh my dear boy how absolutely magnanimous of you to say so but you know, my dear boy, I fear this means we go back to where we were yesterday because, given that the Western Times report was clearly not speculation, we are still due an answer from you to John G's question ("Are you suggesting that newspapers speculated as to what was said at inquests, rather than report the proceedings verbatim? What's your evidence for this?")