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  • #16
    Originally posted by Graham View Post
    If Alphon and Hanratty were really part of a 'conspiracy', does anyone truly think that, when asked where he was on the night of the murder, Alphon would have told the truth, as he did? I don't think so. It also confirms to my mind at least that Alphon was totally unaware of the cartridge cases that were subsequently found in Room 24. To bring the police roaring into The Vienna Hotel would have been tantamount to suicide. As Sherrard said, this case is literally dripping with coincidence.

    Graham
    He had no option but to tell the truth. The police were putting out the biggest man hunt ever, As soon as Nudds saw his ugly mug in the paper or on tv, he would be calling the cops without a doubt. Loved to keep in with the police did Nuddsy. Much much worse for Pete if he'd lied then Nudds stuck the knife in so to speak, don't you think?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by NickB View Post
      The co-incidence springs from the manager of the Alexandra Court Hotel reporting Alphon to the police. Had this not happened it is difficult to see how Alphon would have figured in the case at all. You could also argue that Hanratty would not have figured either, as it was Alphon’s connection to the murder enquiry that made Crocker feel obliged to report finding the cartridge cases to the police.

      A couple more addresses:

      Alexandra Court Hotel, 330 – 340 Seven Sisters Road, London. N4 2PE

      Juniper Antiques, 57 Greek Street, London. W1D 3DY
      (there are two front doors at number 57, it is the one on the left)
      Re- Alexandra court manager reporting Alphon.
      Googled how many hotels in London : no exact number, but between 700 and 1500. And if we consider the massive reduction of B andBs since the sixties.
      Then we're asked to believe that the police put out an all hotel and b and b alert,
      For any odd characters they may have ,behaving strangely in the last few days,
      And lo and behold someone comes up with Alphon.Wonder if he knew Nudds?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by moste View Post
        Re- Alexandra court manager reporting Alphon.
        Googled how many hotels in London : no exact number, but between 700 and 1500. And if we consider the massive reduction of B andBs since the sixties.
        Then we're asked to believe that the police put out an all hotel and b and b alert,
        For any odd characters they may have ,behaving strangely in the last few days,
        And lo and behold someone comes up with Alphon.Wonder if he knew Nudds?
        Another address.
        The Pineapple Inn ,Lake End road, Dorney SL4 6QS.
        Valerie and Mikes first date Dec.'57.

        Comment


        • #19
          Nudds would have said whatever the person paying him wanted him to say.

          I have no idea why a jury would trust the evidence of such an obviously dodgy character.


          And how did anyone arrive at the ludicrous coincidence that the alleged A6 murderer happened by chance to be staying (on the night before the murder) in the same doss house as was the first police suspect, Peter Alphon? It was the police hunt for Alphon that led them to the Vienna Hotel, Maida Vale, where he said he stayed on the night of the murder.
          This is simply my opinion

          Comment


          • #20
            And how did anyone arrive at the ludicrous coincidence that the alleged A6 murderer happened by chance to be staying (on the night before the murder) in the same doss house as was the first police suspect, Peter Alphon? It was the police hunt for Alphon that led them to the Vienna Hotel, Maida Vale, where he said he stayed on the night of the murder
            Following the murder, the police had absolutely no leads to follow up, yet Alphon was by no means the first person interviewed in connection with the murder. Following what was then quite normal police practice, Acott issued a general request via the media for any hotel, B&B or boarding-house proprietor to let him know if they had a guest whose behaviour was suspicious or abnormal. Today, such a move by the police would be considered very strange, but back then it was how it was.

            Mr Sims, manager of The Alexander Court, informed the police on 27 August that he had such a guest, who was keeping odd hours and his noisy behaviour in his room was annoying other guests. The first time the police visited, Alphon (who had checked in with the name Frederick Durrant) wasn't in, but when they returned he was in his room and was asked questions including where he was on the night of 22 August. He told them the truth that he was at The Vienna registered as Frederick Durrant. The police told him to re-register in his real name and warned him to behave himself. With that Alphon disappeared from view. There was NO police hunt for Alphon until the cartridge cases were found at the Vienna on 11 September. That's when the police descended upon the hotel and started a desperate search for Alphon, who surrendered himself on 22 September shortly after the police publicly named him in connection with the A6.

            The police had known about The Vienna since 27 August but had no reason to connect it with the A6 as they did not consider Alphon a suspect until the cartridges were found. Obviously, they checked the register regarding who else had stayed there on 22 August which is when the name Ryan was first brought to their attention.

            Graham
            We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

            Comment


            • #21
              And at that point there is an interesting twist in the story.

              On 13-Sep-61 Galves makes a statement saying the hotel register shows that no-one had occupied Room 24 since 16th August.

              As Woffinden says (page62): “However, after a closer examination of the books, it now emerged that the room was occupied. Someone called J. Ryan slept in Room 24 on Monday, 21 August, the night before the murder.”

              It was one of the grounds of Appeal in 2002 that this delay was caused by the police trying to frame Alphon.

              Appeal section 166: “Mr Mansfield argues further, that it is legitimate to infer that the hotel register had been altered to conceal the entry in relation to Ryan and that the defence were deprived of the opportunity to submit that the police were prepared to tailor the evidence to fit the theory that Durrant/Alphon was guilty, that someone with knowledge that Alphon was under investigation had planted the cartridge cases; and that the hotel record had been altered in some way.”

              Comment


              • #22
                I wrote "night of 22 August" instead of "21" - slip of the keyboard.

                I don't myself think that the Vienna's books had been altered - had they been 'doctored', when would that have happened? As I understand it, the staff at the Vienna seemed to confirm Alphon's statement that he had arrived at the hotel around 11.00pm that evening and had stayed there all night. If this is true, and I believe it is, then there is obviously no way he could have committed the A6 crime.

                It was at this point that the police got hold of Nudds by the fundamentals, and treated him to the third degree until he made a statement that agreed with the police's version of events. Unfortunately, such tactics were by no means uncommon at that time, and in the case of a crime such as the A6 it is doubtful if the general public were over-bothered, so long as the murderer was caught. I would give (somewhat grudgingly) Acott & Co the benefit of the doubt here, and say that they genuinely felt that Alphon was the culprit.

                Only when Valerie failed to pick out Alphon on the ID parade did the police return to the Vienna for further checks of the books, interviews with the staff, etc. I find it slightly remarkable that they appeared not to make any attempts to actually locate and interview other guests at the Vienna that night until Alphon was eliminated, but that seems to be the case.

                So Peter Louis was in the clear....and then there was Justice....

                Graham
                We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                Comment


                • #23
                  If Valerie had picked out Alphon, Acott would still have had to re-interview Galves to get her to change her statement to align with Nudds-2.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Graham View Post
                    Only when Valerie failed to pick out Alphon on the ID parade did the police return to the Vienna for further checks of the books, interviews with the staff, etc. I find it slightly remarkable that they appeared not to make any attempts to actually locate and interview other guests at the Vienna that night until Alphon was eliminated, but that seems to be the case.

                    So Peter Louis was in the clear....and then there was Justice....

                    Graham
                    But why would the police go back to the same hotel and expect to find another suspect? Can someone refresh my memory? Was it that the cartridges had been found (planted more like!)?

                    As for Jean Justice and his friend, they struck me as a couple of rich party people who had a lot of time on their hands. Befriending (and doing whatever else he did with him) Alphon didn't really serve an awful lot of purpose in the end. From the moment Jean Justice entered this convoluted story I just lost interest in it.
                    This is simply my opinion

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      If Valerie had picked out Alphon, Acott would still have had to re-interview Galves to get her to change her statement to align with Nudds-2
                      Indeed, and had Alphon got so far as being on trial for his life, it may well have posed a problem for the prosecution.

                      Graham
                      We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        But why would the police go back to the same hotel and expect to find another suspect? Can someone refresh my memory? Was it that the cartridges had been found (planted more like!)?
                        Louisa, the cartridge cases were found and shown to have been fired with the same gun used to kill Gregsten. Therefore the police were reasonably confident that whoever had stayed in Room 24 on the 21 August had been in possession of the murder weapon and had, by logical extension, almost certainly committed the murder. Once Alphon was in the clear via the ID parade the police had to accept that he had nothing to do with the A6 case and that his presence in the Vienna on the night in question was purely coincidental.

                        They therefore had little option other than return to the Vienna and so dowhat they should have done some time before, and discover just who else other than Alphon had stayed in the hotel that night, particularly in Room 24. Hence the name Ryan came in the frame.

                        If you wish to believe that the cartridges were planted, then that is your prerogative, but is I think now impossible to prove.

                        Obviously there is far more to these particular aspects of the story.

                        Graham
                        We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          There are too many coincidences regarding Alphon for my liking.

                          In one of his confessions Alphon explained how, after the murder, he had met Dixie France (in a seaside town - Southend? I'm going from memory now because it's been a while since I read my books on this case) - where they went to a Steak House, then Alphon pulled out the gun (which he had been given to him on a prior occasion in order to frighten Gregston but was ultimately used to kill him) and France was a bit shocked to see Alphon so openly waving the gun around, but he took it from him and they walked up the pier where France threw it in the sea.

                          I remember when it read it that Alphon's account of that day sounded very plausible. So, for that matter, does most of his account of what happened in the hours leading up to the murder.
                          This is simply my opinion

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by louisa View Post
                            There are too many coincidences regarding Alphon for my liking.

                            In one of his confessions Alphon explained how, after the murder, he had met Dixie France (in a seaside town - Southend? I'm going from memory now because it's been a while since I read my books on this case) - where they went to a Steak House, then Alphon pulled out the gun (which he had been given to him on a prior occasion in order to frighten Gregston but was ultimately used to kill him) and France was a bit shocked to see Alphon so openly waving the gun around, but he took it from him and they walked up the pier where France threw it in the sea.

                            I remember when it read it that Alphon's account of that day sounded very plausible. So, for that matter, does most of his account of what happened in the hours leading up to the murder.
                            Louisa, this is total nonsense, but if you really do believe it, then I for one will be genuinely interested in your source.

                            The gun found on the 36A bus was forensically and ballistically tested, and was found to totally beyond doubt the weapon that was used to kill Gregsten and maim Valerie. The cartridge cases found at The Vienna and in the car, and the bullets taken from Valerie, were shown to have been fired from that very gun. It was not chucked into the sea; it was deposited under the upstairs back seat of a 36A bus and was duly discovered wrapped in a hankie which Hanratty agreed was his and which was later established to contain his DNA. How the gun came to be on the bus and wrapped in one of Hanratty's hankies is open to debate; but it was, and that is a fact.

                            Graham
                            We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Graham View Post
                              The gun found on the 36A bus was forensically and ballistically tested, and was found to totally beyond doubt the weapon that was used to kill Gregsten and maim Valerie. The cartridge cases found at The Vienna and in the car, and the bullets taken from Valerie, were shown to have been fired from that very gun. It was not chucked into the sea; it was deposited under the upstairs back seat of a 36A bus and was duly discovered wrapped in a hankie which Hanratty agreed was his and which was later established to contain his DNA. How the gun came to be on the bus and wrapped in one of Hanratty's hankies is open to debate; but it was, and that is a fact.
                              I have firm doubts that Hanratty ever gave evidence to the effect that the hankie was his and that this factoid has come about through the invention of an earlier poster on this forum.

                              There is no mention in either of Foot or Woffinden's books that Hanratty made such an admission. Moreover the DNA tests on the hankie would not have been of any great moment if Hanratty had agreed that the hankie was his. Indeed the only comment anyone could have made in the Court of Appeal in 2002 in those circumstances would have been, "what did you expect to find on Hanratty's used hankie but Hanratty's DNA from his mucus?"

                              That Hanratty's hankie was used to wrap the gun did not conclusively prove guilt but went a long way to confirming it.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                If Hanratty had admitted the hankie was his it would have been reported in the newspapers. They provide quite detailed coverage of his evidence and it is inconceivable that something of this significance would have been excluded.

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