Serious issue regarding Business Records from 19th Century

[Mayerling]

Recently I have been reconsidering some points on this website concerning various issues in this series of crimes. One that bothers me is the fate of 19th Century business records.

If one ran a reasonably sized business (not like Standard Oil, but a prosperous middle size one) you had to keep records of whatever you traded, stored, acquired, bought (on consignment perhaps) and where it came from - perhaps even with the names and signatures of agents working for that company. The reason was the need to keep an eye on how the business was running.

There are some places where business records are saved for centuries - and in this age of microfilm, microfiche, and computers I wonder if the records of a middle sized business might still exist in Britain. Of course I'd have to keep in mind the effects of aerial bombardment in both world wars, especially in the Blitz and V1 and V2 attacks on London (in particular the East End). But sometimes things work out. Sometimes records might survive.

Any ideas?

Jeff

[GUT]

Recently I have been reconsidering some points on this website concerning various issues in this series of crimes. One that bothers me is the fate of 19th Century business records.

If one ran a reasonably sized business (not like Standard Oil, but a prosperous middle size one) you had to keep records of whatever you traded, stored, acquired, bought (on consignment perhaps) and where it came from - perhaps even with the names and signatures of agents working for that company. The reason was the need to keep an eye on how the business was running.

There are some places where business records are saved for centuries - and in this age of microfilm, microfiche, and computers I wonder if the records of a middle sized business might still exist in Britain. Of course I'd have to keep in mind the effects of aerial bombardment in both world wars, especially in the Blitz and V1 and V2 attacks on London (in particular the East End). But sometimes things work out. Sometimes records might survive.

Any ideas?

Jeff

Generally only required to keep them 7-10 years Jeff.

But I know many businesses keep/kept them much longer. Now I'm in Aus but my dad has every piece of paper his (small) business ever generated, every invoice, in or out, every day book, every pay record, he's still got at least most of it and he sold the business 15 years ago.

I know the other day we were talking about when something happened in the town and mum trotted down the shed, came back with some books and started looking stuff up from 55 years ago.

In my opinion a small business is more likely to have kept them than a large business, mainly because of volume and the personal connection.

[Mayerling]

Generally only required to keep them 7-10 years Jeff.

But I know many businesses keep/kept them much longer. Now I'm in Aus but my dad has every piece of paper his (small) business ever generated, every invoice, in or out, every day book, every pay record, he's still got at least most of it and he sold the business 15 years ago.

I know the other day we were talking about when something happened in the town and mum trotted down the shed, came back with some books and started looking stuff up from 55 years ago.

In my opinion a small business is more likely to have kept them than a large business, mainly because of volume and the personal connection.

G'day GUT,

I know my mother was a "pack rat" type, saving checks and stubs going back to the 1980s. Last summer I threw most of them out. At the same time I believe I still have my paycheck stubs from 1978 - 1981 in one draw (although I wonder if I got rid of them). But these are family financial records. Not the same as keeping decades of business dealings.

For example, suppose I had a large empire of garages around a major city (I knew somebody once whose father owned several parking garages). He would certainly keep records for some time. That rule about 7 years or so is more appropriate for tax records, but for families or individual people. A store would probably keep them longer.

And what if the hypothetical garage had been bought out by a larger competitor? Or they merged? Certainly the record would have to be kept if there was some belated insurance accident claim on the older company that the younger one might not be responsible for?

Or how about the delivery of items stored in the firm - say a warehouse. A tobacco warehouse, where there might be deliveries over a period of time from some tobacco plantation in the U.S. and who was the person who signed the items over?

See it is an interesting problem.

Jeff

[GUT]

G'day GUT,

I know my mother was a "pack rat" type, saving checks and stubs going back to the 1980s. Last summer I threw most of them out. At the same time I believe I still have my paycheck stubs from 1978 - 1981 in one draw (although I wonder if I got rid of them). But these are family financial records. Not the same as keeping decades of business dealings.

For example, suppose I had a large empire of garages around a major city (I knew somebody once whose father owned several parking garages). He would certainly keep records for some time. That rule about 7 years or so is more appropriate for tax records, but for families or individual people. A store would probably keep them longer.

And what if the hypothetical garage had been bought out by a larger competitor? Or they merged? Certainly the record would have to be kept if there was some belated insurance accident claim on the older company that the younger one might not be responsible for?

Or how about the delivery of items stored in the firm - say a warehouse. A tobacco warehouse, where there might be deliveries over a period of time from some tobacco plantation in the U.S. and who was the person who signed the items over?

See it is an interesting problem.

Jeff

Some would some wouldn't.

I have worked for a lot of businesses over the years and been involved in a few merges and takeovers over the years, some businesses would keep every scrap of paper, others would toss it the first day there was no legal requirement to retain it. (One job I had with a financial institution was looking after not only their documents but those of some subsidiaries and even some customers, the sub contracted stuff each customer set their own requirement and they varied greatly.

So in answer to your initial question, yes some business records would still exist from the time without a shadow of a doubt, but the paper shortage during the war and the blitz also saw a lot lost.

I got real excited when I found a reference telling me where to see the will of my 4x great grandfather, unfortunately goneski (blitz) but a much older will of another relative (hundreds of years older) still exists.

[Mayerling]

Some would some wouldn't.

I have worked for a lot of businesses over the years and been involved in a few merges and takeovers over the years, some businesses would keep every scrap of paper, others would toss it the first day there was no legal requirement to retain it. (One job I had with a financial institution was looking after not only their documents but those of some subsidiaries and even some customers, the sub contracted stuff each customer set their own requirement and they varied greatly.

So in answer to your initial question, yes some business records would still exist from the time without a shadow of a doubt, but the paper shortage during the war and the blitz also saw a lot lost.

I got real excited when I found a reference telling me where to see the will of my 4x great grandfather, unfortunately goneski (blitz) but a much older will of another relative (hundreds of years older) still exists.

Yes, I can imagine that a will like that would be quite an interesting family document (especially if it mentions some famous relatives you did not know of). I sometimes wonder about this regarding myself - while my mother's mother's father is from Birmingham, England, the other great grandparents are Hungarian, German, Polish, and Russian. The paper trail for them is less likely to exist, due to how much of the last two hundred years involved fighting over lands in those countries.

In any case, if there were some central clearing house (like the ones that checks go through in our country) that kept records on old firms, especially showing whom the firms dealt with and their representatives - that would be quite helpful.

Anyone else ever look into British business records for say the 1870s and 1880s?

Jeff

[Shaggyrand]

There are some places where business records are saved for centuries - and in this age of microfilm, microfiche, and computers I wonder if the records of a middle sized business might still exist in Britain. Of course I'd have to keep in mind the effects of aerial bombardment in both world wars, especially in the Blitz and V1 and V2 attacks on London (in particular the East End). But sometimes things work out. Sometimes records might survive.

It's possible, even likely, that some companies made mircoform versions of their 1880s records in the 1920s or 30s... But it's far less likely that, even of those transferred, they got digitized. Two problems with transfers. First, if they were done odds of originals floating around decreases greatly. Second, and more importantly, microforms were very prone to deterioration because of their cellulose acetate base (it was changed to polyester in the mid-90s). Vinegar syndrome is a big problem with microforms. Even if they were stored as ideally as possible they might not be usable.
I mean I have no doubt you can find some paper records and some transferred to an archival media. I just don't think the odds of finding anything specific are al that good.

[Mayerling]

It's possible, even likely, that some companies made mircoform versions of their 1880s records in the 1920s or 30s... But it's far less likely that, even of those transferred, they got digitized. Two problems with transfers. First, if they were done odds of originals floating around decreases greatly. Second, and more importantly, microforms were very prone to deterioration because of their cellulose acetate base (it was changed to polyester in the mid-90s). Vinegar syndrome is a big problem with microforms. Even if they were stored as ideally as possible they might not be usable.
I mean I have no doubt you can find some paper records and some transferred to an archival media. I just don't think the odds of finding anything specific are al that good.

But is there a possible spot, similar to the British Museum's newspaper center, where such records could possibly be centered? If not centered a place keeping track of where such records might be kept.

Jeff

[Kattrup]

Mayerling, have you checked out the NA's business records info:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/businesses/
There's also the Business Archives Council: http://www.businessarchivescouncil.org.uk/

Lots of archives collect records from businesses, just as they collect from individuals or associations.
Some specialise more in one kind than in the other, so it's a matter of your starting point - is it local business, what kind of archive is there in that area etc.

Of course, some businesses are big enough to have their own visitors' centre with museum and archive. But it sounds like you're looking for something smaller.

[Elamarna]

jeff

Some companies got amalgamated and still exist, but if any records exist is a separate issue.

one which funnily enough has a ripper related link is international stores

http://www.internationalstores.co.uk/

There is some comment in the old archives too about records at that particular company, interesting comments by the late Chris Scott.
Noticed that when I was checking out something else recently.

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4920/5546.html

Not sure where else one could look for old company records.

Steve

[GUT]

jeff

Some companies got amalgamated and still exist, but if any records exist is a separate issue.

one which funnily enough has a ripper related link is international stores

http://www.internationalstores.co.uk/

There is some comment in the old archives too about records at that particular company, interesting comments by the late Chris Scott.
Noticed that when I was checking out something else recently.

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4920/5546.html

Not sure where else one could look for old company records.

Steve

Cool I'll do some searching, didn't think of them.

[Mayerling]

jeff

Some companies got amalgamated and still exist, but if any records exist is a separate issue.

one which funnily enough has a ripper related link is international stores

http://www.internationalstores.co.uk/

There is some comment in the old archives too about records at that particular company, interesting comments by the late Chris Scott.
Noticed that when I was checking out something else recently.

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4920/5546.html

Not sure where else one could look for old company records.

Steve

Thank you Steve. It is good to see that there may be records regarding Kearly and Tonge, the warehouse people servicing the tea trade, who were at Mitre Square. I'm glad to see this old firm, once tied through Kearly to Tetley & Co., tea growers, still has left it's records behind. Apparently it's agents had contacts with tea growers around the globe, in and out of the Empire, but including tea plantations in Ceylon and India. The records may even show who represented these sources of tea when sending cargos to London for storage and sale. Anyone could be on them!

Jeff

[Mayerling]

Mayerling, have you checked out the NA's business records info:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/businesses/
There's also the Business Archives Council: http://www.businessarchivescouncil.org.uk/

Lots of archives collect records from businesses, just as they collect from individuals or associations.
Some specialise more in one kind than in the other, so it's a matter of your starting point - is it local business, what kind of archive is there in that area etc.

Of course, some businesses are big enough to have their own visitors' centre with museum and archive. But it sounds like you're looking for something smaller.

Interesting to find these websites. As the records of an East End business (according to the business archives council, might be stored in a local site, the danger that such was lost in the Blitz is always there.

Jeff

[Joshua Rogan]

Thank you Steve. It is good to see that there may be records regarding Kearly and Tonge, the warehouse people servicing the tea trade, who were at Mitre Square.

Not only Mitre Square, it seems they also have a connection to Buck's Row, albeit possibly a little later;


"The wholesale price list of January, 1895, refers to the Mitre Square office and the Durward Street warehouse, with 130,000 square feet of floor area, as being by far the largest operated by any similar firm in the United Kingdom. The manufacture of jams, cakes, biscuits, sweets, etc., began at Durward Street in that year."

[Mayerling]

Kearly & Tonge did get about. Perhaps there are comments in their records for 1888 regarding the killings. I also wonder about who could have been their agents regarding tea, or representing the tea growing sources abroad.

Jeff

[Rosella]

A discussion about Kearley and Tonge which took place here on Casebook way back in 2003.

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4920/5546.html