The broken window

[packers stem]

Maybe they did wake them up with the discovery of the bodies. But then again, the discovery of the bodies didn't require any urgent action on the part of the police that night, outside of normal procedure in a murder case. The discovery of the graffiti did, however, require immediate action on the part of the police at a senior level. Keep or remove? Photograph or not? A decision was required by someone with authority to make it.

But this is really all just detail. Questions for which there are very simple and straightforward answers. No need to imagine conspiracies everywhere.

There are always alternative explanations David but that doesn't make them correct
Do you remember in the 80s when the crop circles first started appearing? I remember a scientist on TV doing his best to convince everyone that they were all caused by a wind vortex.I don't know if he had himself ever seen the complexity of these designs but wind vortex???
Thankfully a couple of farmers and a plank of wood came along to rescue us from science
Alternative explanation does not necessarily mean correct explanation

[Abby Normal]

Forgive my ignorance-but I have several questions regarding the whole locked door thing.

Im befuddled by the fact that apparently there was no key to her room (even by the land lord).
But the window just happened to be broken to allow the little trick to reach the hand through to unlock.

Who would know about this little trick? Mary. Barnett. Hutch?


Does that not point to someone with intimate knowledge of her living arrangements? someone who knew her?

Also, according to cox-wasn't mary and Blotchy entering (or were they only outside her door?)already? meaning she might have the key?

And if she did-why would the killer take it?

[Wickerman]

Oh Dear...the dodgy late 80s delivery then,explains it lol
Probably taken just before demolition

The outside street shot (the one with the chair sat by the passage), wasn't that taken by Leonard Matters, just before demolition?
Anyhow, that photo was from a private collection, the backyard photo came from a police source I think.

I can still only see one broken window, top right but we know the lower left one should be broken but all 3 other panes look identical to me.

The upper half of the lower right pane looks broken to me, its a lighter shade of grey, which means in reality it was darker.

On top of that with the way the top right is 'holed' they would have ripped their arms to shreds every time they wanted to open the door. If it was used for access they would surely have removed the edging to make it a 'clean' square...and, Kelly would have probably have had to stand on the window sill to stretch in far enough...Nothing rings true does it?

I think it was Bob Hinton who used the physical dimensions of a typical house brick from the period, coupled with the typical cement line, and recreated a mock-up of the window and door in relative distance, to see if the lock was reachable.
I think the thread is archived somewhere.

I did the same but using AutoCad back around 2000 or thereabouts. I drew a three-dimensional scale model based on the same house brick as Bob used.

The upper-half of the lower right window had to be broken out to satisfy the claim made by Barnet, and that is what we see in that photo (sorry you find it difficult to distinguish).

[David Orsam]

There are always alternative explanations David but that doesn't make them correct

I didn't say anything about "alternative explanations". I referred to simple and straightforward explanations.

[Wickerman]

Hi Abby.

Not sure if this answers your query, but I have read opinions from people at the time that door locks were installed for personal protection, not to prevent theft.

Landlords rarely provided anything of value in those rooms, so theft was not a concern. The tenant would lock the door when they were in, for their own protection, not when they went out. Which is opposite to what we would take as normal today.

[Robert St Devil]

Does that not point to someone with intimate knowledge of her living arrangements? someone who knew her?

You cant imagine how good this question is! Every woman on Dorset St and Whitechapel are barricading their doors because of him, but he just happens to pick the one girl who doesnt. For this, we should be able to eliminate intruder and the prince. How would he have known unless he was walking door to door ha ha. The fact that shes in her chemise and more to the left side of the bed indicates intercourse. Given fact that she took him home for that purpose. Which brings me back to your question. How did the murderer know that Joe Barrett or any other visitors would not walk in and catch him in the act?

[Abby Normal]

You cant imagine how good this question is! Every woman on Dorset St and Whitechapel are barricading their doors because of him, but he just happens to pick the one girl who doesnt. For this, we should be able to eliminate intruder and the prince. How would he have known unless he was walking door to door ha ha. The fact that shes in her chemise and more to the left side of the bed indicates intercourse. Given fact that she took him home for that purpose. Which brings me back to your question. How did the murderer know that Joe Barrett or any other visitors would not walk in and catch him in the act?

cause the son of a bitch knew she had just broke up with him and perhaps, why he waited till the court calmed down and her drunk friends were all passed out?

[Abby Normal]

You cant imagine how good this question is! Every woman on Dorset St and Whitechapel are barricading their doors because of him, but he just happens to pick the one girl who doesnt. For this, we should be able to eliminate intruder and the prince. How would he have known unless he was walking door to door ha ha. The fact that shes in her chemise and more to the left side of the bed indicates intercourse. Given fact that she took him home for that purpose. Which brings me back to your question. How did the murderer know that Joe Barrett or any other visitors would not walk in and catch him in the act?

or...he was even more close and knew that joe had left earlier and would probably not be back till the morrow...

[Rosella]

According to Elizabeth Prater she would barricade her door with a couple of tables when she was indoors at night and alone. Probably Mary did the same when she was by herself. However, she was found in a chemise as if she was 'entertaining' a client shortly before her death. If she was, then that points to a client as perp surely, (either Blotchy or Astrakhan Man,) unless she fell asleep after letting them out without bothering to take the usual precautions with the door.

[Robert St Devil]

As for the lock, what sort of lock was it? Because the board is right - the bright idea of reaching thru the window must have dawned on one person. Only way i see the door being knocked in is, if the door is door is locked inside. We already know the door must lock when its closed or else she wouldnt have to use the window or a key.

[Wickerman]

As for the lock, what sort of lock was it? Because the board is right - the bright idea of reaching thru the window must have dawned on one person. Only way i see the door being knocked in is, if the door is door is locked inside. We already know the door must lock when its closed or else she wouldnt have to use the window or a key.

"The lock of the door was a spring one,..."

There is an example in an archived thread, several photographs by Bob Hinton.

[Robert St Devil]

According to Elizabeth Prater she would barricade her door with a couple of tables when she was indoors at night and alone.

I remember a statement by a woman on Hanbury St or Bucks Row saying she used chairs(?). I think it was the lady next door to the Nichols murder. Eitherway... lots of locks sold during these months, im sure.

[Robert St Devil]

"The lock of the door was a spring one,..."

There is an example in an archived thread, several photographs by Bob Hinton

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/6718.html

[Wickerman]

Here is the archived thread, page down to the bottom to see examples.

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/6718.html

[Robert St Devil]

Pinch poke... Her door must have been like pic 5. Wondering if that left knob went missing. It should have been so easy for the police to slide it left.