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  • Originally posted by curious4 View Post
    No, I don't agree. Gluttonous, orgiastic (your words) imply loss of control. The piles of flesh on the table, no purpose to it, just cutting because he didn't know where to stop. The way in which Mary (and Kate, cut up "like a pig at market"), no control.

    Best wishes
    C4
    In what is going to sound like the lamest backpedaling of all time (though it isn't), there's control, and then there's control. One being emotional and one being functional.

    Had he wept the entire time he did it, we would say that he had lost emotional control. He was not clinical, he was not detached, he was not Spock-like. That would be incorrect. Technically speaking, when it comes to feelings or their attendant behaviors, it is not a loss of control until it forces someone to act against their own interests, or they cannot regain their normal state. Whatever was going on in his head, he was not forced to act against his own interests. Any emotion, anger, anxiety, pleasure, is perfectly normal. And expressing those emotions is normal. Of course with serial killers there's a different scale, since serial killing is clearly not a healthy expression of anything. THIS serial killer was pretty clinical. Fairly contained up until the mutilation of Eddowes face. Not devoid of emotion, but wrapped up pretty tight. Then he was less tightly wrapped. He showed anger or frustration or fear, something. Which is actually not unusual for serial killers. Dahmer was similar in that his first kills were pretty basic. Pretty clinical. But once he started figuring out what he wanted, that's when **** got weird (pardon the expression). And Dahmer wasn't out of control. He was relaxing into his groove so to speak.

    A lot of things can crack open a tightly wound killer. First of all, he may have finally been confident enough in his skills that could relax and enjoy it. Or being indoors meant he didn't have to devote half of his attention to listening for someone coming. Or maybe he had enough experience to know what he wanted, and could take pleasure in that. If Jack were a natural glutton and was forced by circumstances to live with the bare minimum until he got to what would be the murder equivalent of an all you can eat buffet, we might expect him to indulge where he had not previously. Or if he was finally laying his hands on a victim he actually had an emotional connection to, and is confronting her in a spectacularly unhealthy way, we would also expect to see increased activity. We have no idea what his emotional "normal" was. He probably didn't know. Despite how basic it sounds, it's actually a pretty tough thing to figure out. He might have cracked a little. He might have simply been coming into who he really was. He might have just had a good night because he won $20 buck at poker an hour earlier. But he wasn't forced to act against his own interests, and there's no evidence he could not return to his baseline state.

    And he clearly didn't lose functional control. Unless he did it in the corner while someone else did the cutting. Shaking and sputtering, unable to hold a knife, maybe wetting himself.

    There was no screaming or shouting, pretty common when people lose it. There were no golf ball sized chunks of mystery flesh strewn about the room. There were no tearing injuries, like he ripped her apart with his bare hands. She was not hacked to pieces. There were not 107 stab wounds. Her organs were cut out, and carefully. Not torn out. And not dumped on the floor or chucked in the fireplace, but sorted in a weird way around the room. Her facial mutilations were meticulous. He destroyed her, but carefully. His hands were steady. His movements purposeful. It looks like he enjoyed it. Reveled in it even. Which is more than we had seen of him in the past. But that's not a loss of control. It's not even a loss of control compared to his other work. It's not exactly the same, but then no two victims ever were. Does someone who did what was done to Chapman end up doing what was done to Kelly? Yeah. That makes sense. There's a difference between losing it and losing yourself in it. There's also a difference between losing control and loosening up.
    The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by curious4 View Post
      Hello Caz

      Never been to an orgy, or likely to be but I shouldn' t imagine those who do are particularly in control.

      Best wishes
      C4
      Ok. Just remember please that I worked for an anthropologist who studied serial killers and sex crimes. I means I had a lot of deeply weird assignments.

      One of which was at an orgy. And I'm a liberal minded soul, and as long as it's consenting adults who am I to judge? I mean, I volunteered for this, because no one else raised their hand, and I figure I taught sex ed, and it's not like I haven't seen sex before.

      Years of therapy. Not kidding. Deeply traumatic, even though I was sure I could handle it.

      They are in control. Not always aware, but in control. Potential partners get rejected which is one thing if you're still at a bar, but another thing when they are already naked with you. So there are some tantrums. Protection was used, so that had to be refreshed. There is a hierarchy. People get elbowed in the face, there's some person sitting at the side naked because they are the odd man out or waiting. It's just sex. With a lot of people around you also having sex. And you switch around, but it's still just sex. And it no more pleasurable than two people in a bedroom, but apparently "it just feels more decadent, more rebellious". But one of them was a friend of my Dad's, and he just looked up and gave me a wave and a wink, and my brain broke.

      The original orgies which didn't include sex but a lot of wine and drugs, those I imagine were out of control. But the deeply disturbing "silver fox" version I saw was just traumatic. Because I swear to god, I think they were all bored.

      I don't know why I'm telling you this. I just apparently am.
      The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

      Comment


      • Hello Errata

        I would say that not knowing when to stop points to a loss of control. And I wouldn't call what he did meticulous. Matter of opinion though.

        Best wishes
        C4

        PS Wouldn't at all want to belittle your experience. Don't really know what to say, but it seems to me that you were young and coersed into this as is easily done with the young. If your employer persuaded you into this, he/she has a lot to answer for.
        Last edited by curious4; 09-03-2015, 09:36 AM.

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        • Originally posted by curious4 View Post
          PS Wouldn't at all want to belittle your experience. Don't really know what to say, but it seems to me that you were young and coersed into this as is easily done with the young. If your employer persuaded you into this, he/she has a lot to answer for.
          Not at all. It was his meeting but he got called in to court to refute testimony. He asked if one of us wanted to take it, and if not he would reschedule. I was certain I was more than up to the task. And the interview was supposed to be in the office, but the guy wanted to be in the room since his security guard needed to take care of something else. I could wait in the office or go with him, and I was just so bloody sure it would be like watching a nature film. And it might have been if the whole "Hey, that's Carl" thing hadn't happened. This was me being stubborn and thick headed.
          The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by curious4 View Post
            Hello Errata

            I would say that not knowing when to stop points to a loss of control. And I wouldn't call what he did meticulous. Matter of opinion though.

            Best wishes
            C4
            I guess my question would be, how do you know that he didn't know when to stop? When was he supposed to stop? The first (few) times he took nothing. The second time just the uterus. The third time the uterus and the kidney. So what was supposed to be this stopping point that he blew past?
            The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

            Comment


            • "Blood was everywhere and pieces of flesh were scattered about the floor". (The Definitive Story, Paul Begg). I can see no motive for many of the cuts made: he removed the eyelids. Ok, he wanted whoever his victims represented to him to "see" what he could do, but the eyebrows? He may have started in a fairly controlled way, placing body parts in a ritualistic way, but then seems to have completely lost it, cutting off flesh and stabbing at the body. What was he going to do with what he cut off from the thighs? No chance that they would "fit into a tea cup". The Times states that every body part was accounted for, Central News is equally sure that the heart was missing. So possibly no "souvenir" this time.

              No, I stick to my opinion that Jack lost control and only came to himself when either an accomplice outside warned him that he was likely to be discovered or noises outside made him realise this. If you want to believe that he was completely in control despite the carnage he left behind him, you are welcome to your opinion.

              Best wishes
              C4

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              • Originally posted by curious4 View Post
                but the eyebrows?
                Best wishes
                C4
                Might be worth checking your facts.
                My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                Comment


                • Originally posted by curious4 View Post
                  Hello Caz

                  Never been to an orgy, or likely to be but I shouldn' t imagine those who do are particularly in control.

                  Best wishes
                  C4
                  Eh? Who mentioned an orgy? Don't think it was me. Where is it? Should I bring a bottle?

                  Love,

                  Caz
                  X
                  "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                    Caz

                    So you would believe that the killer risks arrest and detection to take away organs in what can only be described as almost impossible circumstances with little time available to him. Yet when he had unlimited time to remove almost every organ and take away every organ he fails to do so. I think your logic in your answer has gone a bit wayward.

                    www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                    Hi Trev,

                    If you are looking for a logical and consistent killer, I'm not sure 1888 Whitechapel is the right place for you.

                    How about this orgy? Sounds interesting.

                    Love,

                    Caz
                    X
                    "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Errata View Post
                      Ok. Just remember please that I worked for an anthropologist who studied serial killers and sex crimes. I means I had a lot of deeply weird assignments.

                      One of which was at an orgy. And I'm a liberal minded soul, and as long as it's consenting adults who am I to judge? I mean, I volunteered for this, because no one else raised their hand, and I figure I taught sex ed, and it's not like I haven't seen sex before.

                      Years of therapy. Not kidding. Deeply traumatic, even though I was sure I could handle it.

                      They are in control. Not always aware, but in control. Potential partners get rejected which is one thing if you're still at a bar, but another thing when they are already naked with you. So there are some tantrums. Protection was used, so that had to be refreshed. There is a hierarchy. People get elbowed in the face, there's some person sitting at the side naked because they are the odd man out or waiting. It's just sex. With a lot of people around you also having sex. And you switch around, but it's still just sex. And it no more pleasurable than two people in a bedroom, but apparently "it just feels more decadent, more rebellious". But one of them was a friend of my Dad's, and he just looked up and gave me a wave and a wink, and my brain broke.

                      The original orgies which didn't include sex but a lot of wine and drugs, those I imagine were out of control. But the deeply disturbing "silver fox" version I saw was just traumatic. Because I swear to god, I think they were all bored.

                      I don't know why I'm telling you this. I just apparently am.
                      Er, okay. I think I'll decline the invitation thanks. And Queen's on BBC4 tonight.

                      Love,

                      Caz
                      X
                      "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by caz View Post
                        Er, okay. I think I'll decline the invitation thanks. And Queen's on BBC4 tonight.

                        Love,

                        Caz
                        X
                        Yeah I would.

                        I'm the one who mentioned it being orgiastic. In terms of being an act rooted solely in a wanton pursuit of pleasure. He wanted to, he enjoyed it, got a bit of a high off it. I don't see that as a loss of control, but there is room for interpretation of the meaning of the word.
                        The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

                        Comment


                        • Jack the Ripper wasn't interested in performing any medical procedure on any of his victims. He just butchered, multilated and ripped his victims. He was acting out his fantasies, he was in a violent, aroused mood and the only sinister pleasure he got was from the complete attack of the body and not from practising any particular medical technique.

                          Jack the Ripper was a sick puppy, a sick man and he did terrible things to people.

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                          • Jack certainly wasn't mentally well or he wouldn't have been a serial killer. I do think it is interesting to speculate on just how much anatomical and surgical knowledge he had though, even if he was on a high while he mutilated.

                            Would a medical student necessarily have surgical skills? At what time during their training, (which I know was incredibly brief by our standards today,) would an 1880's medical student be able to observe hospital operations and take notes?

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                            • skint

                              Hello Caroline. Bring a bottle? Well, normally I would buy, but right now I'm a wee bit skint, so perhaps I could do you the favour of letting you buy? (heh-heh)

                              Cheers.
                              LC

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sleuth1888 View Post
                                Jack the Ripper wasn't interested in performing any medical procedure on any of his victims. He just butchered, multilated and ripped his victims. He was acting out his fantasies, he was in a violent, aroused mood and the only sinister pleasure he got was from the complete attack of the body and not from practising any particular medical technique.

                                Jack the Ripper was a sick puppy, a sick man and he did terrible things to people.
                                Absolutely Sleuth 1888. I doubt Jack had any specific medical training but even if he did his mutilating was not about medical technique but the pleasure he got from butchering and ripping his victims.

                                Cheers John

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