A Killer Other Than the B.S. Man?

[c.d.]

I watched that Ripper documentary the other night and was particularly intrigued by the way they portrayed the encounter between Schwartz and the B.S. man. They were in quite close proximity to each other which makes sense. I never really thought about it before but if the B.S. man could make out Schwartz's apparently Jewish appearance so much so that he hurled the Lipski insult it stands to reason that Schwartz got a good look at him as well. Which begs the question why the B.S. man would then go on to kill Stride when at that point all he was guilty of was throwing a woman to the ground?

c.d.

[Rosella]

I suppose it would depend on just how enraged BS man was with Stride and his reasoning behind it. After all, people do kill others in spite of potential witnesses and considerable risks. (But I don't think he did kill her unless BS man is Jack!)

[lynn cates]

yup

Hello CD.

"Which begs the question why the B.S. man would then go on to kill Stride when at that point all he was guilty of was throwing a woman to the ground?"

Indeed.

Cheers.
LC

[Wyatt Earp]

I watched that Ripper documentary the other night and was particularly intrigued by the way they portrayed the encounter between Schwartz and the B.S. man. They were in quite close proximity to each other which makes sense. I never really thought about it before but if the B.S. man could make out Schwartz's apparently Jewish appearance so much so that he hurled the Lipski insult it stands to reason that Schwartz got a good look at him as well. Which begs the question why the B.S. man would then go on to kill Stride when at that point all he was guilty of was throwing a woman to the ground?

Hi c.d. We had this conversation in a different thread last spring. If Stride knew her assailant, which is certainly possible, I think that could explain why she was murdered. In case you’ve forgotten my earlier replies, here they are again.

If Stride knew her assailant, I think that would help to explain what happened here. It would help to explain the muted response to the initial throwdown, it would help to explain her willingness to look past that and go into the yard with him, and it would help to explain how she could have been taken by surprise in the yard. It would also help to explain why she was murdered. BSM had to assume that Schwartz was rushing off to find the nearest policeman. BSM had been seen assaulting a prostitute on the streets of Whitechapel in the wee hours of the morning, and so he naturally would have been a person of interest to the police. If Stride could ID him, then that was a problem. I know he’d only been seen throwing her around, but if you are Jack the Ripper, do you want the police looking into you? No, you do not. A quick murder, and problem solved.

Why would Jack willingly submit to a police investigation—which would put him on their radar, which among other things would involve their looking into his background and previous movements, which could involve their sticking him in front of Elizabeth Long, and which could involve their keeping close tabs on his future movements—why would he willingly submit to all of that, not knowing how the investigation would play out, when all he had to do was knife her and get out of there? A murder meant nothing to this guy.

Since you’re once again asking the same question, may I ask what, if anything, you find unreasonable about this explanation of what could have occurred?

[c.d.]

Hello Wyatt,

Well yes in a perfect world not being questioned by the police is a lot better than being questioned by the police. But since they literally interviewed hundreds of men without making an arrest it would seem that unless some organs and a knife spilled out of your pocket or you screamed out I am Jack the Ripper they really wouldn't have much to go on. Harassment of women (especially prostitutes) did not suddenly come to a halt during this time. In this instance he is simply guilty of throwing a woman to the ground. Why risk being hanged for murder?

As for Stride going willingly into the yard, I think it would have been quite clear that they were not going back there to discuss the weather. A beating would be much more like it. And if he simply wanted to talk to her, why do they have to go back into the yard to do so?

I don't think the B.S. man was her killer.

c.d.

[Wyatt Earp]

Well yes in a perfect world not being questioned by the police is a lot better than being questioned by the police. But since they literally interviewed hundreds of men without making an arrest it would seem that unless some organs and a knife spilled out of your pocket or you screamed out I am Jack the Ripper they really wouldn't have much to go on. Harassment of women (especially prostitutes) did not suddenly come to a halt during this time. In this instance he is simply guilty of throwing a woman to the ground. Why risk being hanged for murder?

You keep insisting that Jack would not have been willing to commit a hanging offense when he had committed that hanging offense before. Can you not see that this is an absurd view?

I see little reason to believe that a multiple killer would want anything to do with a police investigation if he could possibly avoid it. Why take a chance on being put in front of Elizabeth Long and having her say “That’s him!” If Stride knew him and was therefore in a position to put the police onto his trail, I think it’s much more likely he would have made a snap decision to kill her and get out of there.

From the time that Pipeman, who could have been a friend of his, and Schwartz were gone from the scene, I think he could have gotten her into the yard, cut her throat and been on his way in very short order.

I know that many people prefer a scenario in which Jack was interrupted by Diemschutz. There are two major problems with that scenario. First, Diemschutz did not observe anyone by Stride’s body nor did he observe anyone fleeing the scene. His statement, then, cannot be viewed as evidence for an interrupted murder. Second, Diemschutz would have had to arrive at the precise moment between the cutting of Stride’s throat and the commencement of mutilations. That’s possible, but very unlikely.

As for Stride going willingly into the yard, I think it would have been quite clear that they were not going back there to discuss the weather. A beating would be much more like it. And if he simply wanted to talk to her, why do they have to go back into the yard to do so?

No, if Jack had her pegged as a prostitute, I’d expect it would have been more along the lines of “We’re going to go into that yard, and you’re going to give me what I want, or I’m going to punch your lights out.” If Stride had done business with him before and survived it, as seems possible, and if she wanted to avoid having her lights punched out, as seems probable, I think she could well have made the decision to pick herself up and go into the yard with him. She takes her cachous out, and the rest is history.

[c.d.]

"You keep insisting that Jack would not have been willing to commit a hanging offense when he had committed that hanging offense before. Can you not see that this is an absurd view?"

Hello Wyatt,

You are assuming that the B.S. man was Jack which I don't believe he was. Be that as it may. The key point here is that Schwartz got a good look at his face as he was interacting with Stride. Now combine that with the fact that Stride is found dead shortly after. This is completely unlike any witness prior to this who simply may have seen him talking to a woman. We don't know if Jack was aware of Long and certainly Long did not get anywhere near the look that Schwartz did. A quick look at his back from Long several weeks prior would certainly not put a rope around his neck nearly as much as confirmation by Schwartz that he was the man he saw pushing Stride (if he went on to kill her). We also have to take into account that a reasonable man could very well assume that Schwartz was on his way to find the nearest P.C. So again the question is why kill her? At that point he is only guilty of pushing a prostitute an act for which he would probably get a don't do it again if caught. Pushing a prostitute doesn't make you the Ripper. That's why so many men got arrested. Anything bad directed at a woman would be suspicious but that is as far as it went. Suspicion in and of itself does not lead to an arrest without evidence. So why provide the police with evidence, i.e., a dead woman that you were seen throwing to the ground just a few minutes prior to her death? There was no evidence of his prior crimes (if it was Jack) so the question remains why commit an act that will get you hanged after having been seen by Schwartz, when if you simply walk away we don't even know if Stride would have done anything about it if she believed he was just a drunk jerk hasseling her a bit.

c.d.

[Rosella]

Many of these points would be sorted out if Schwartz had been called to the inquest on Stride. Frustratingly, he wasn't. He could have left Whitechapel suddenly or been taken ill, (though that would surely have been mentioned in newspaper reports). Why he wasn't called remains one of the abiding mysteries of this case.

However, the simplest explanation for his absence is maybe that the police either took down his statement and decided it was all a fuss about nothing or the woman concerned probably wasn't Stride. Perhaps, unknown to the Press the police traced this woman and an explanation of the scuffle with BS man was that it was a domestic quarrel.

[lynn cates]

difference of opinion

Hello Rosella.

". . . the simplest explanation for his absence is maybe that the police either took down his statement and decided it was all a fuss about nothing. . . "

Well, Abberline may have had a different opinion. But it may well be that many at Leman thought like that.

Cheers.
LC

[Wyatt Earp]

You are assuming that the B.S. man was Jack which I don't believe he was. Be that as it may. The key point here is that Schwartz got a good look at his face as he was interacting with Stride. Now combine that with the fact that Stride is found dead shortly after. This is completely unlike any witness prior to this who simply may have seen him talking to a woman. We don't know if Jack was aware of Long and certainly Long did not get anywhere near the look that Schwartz did. A quick look at his back from Long several weeks prior would certainly not put a rope around his neck nearly as much as confirmation by Schwartz that he was the man he saw pushing Stride (if he went on to kill her). We also have to take into account that a reasonable man could very well assume that Schwartz was on his way to find the nearest P.C. So again the question is why kill her? At that point he is only guilty of pushing a prostitute an act for which he would probably get a don't do it again if caught. Pushing a prostitute doesn't make you the Ripper. That's why so many men got arrested. Anything bad directed at a woman would be suspicious but that is as far as it went. Suspicion in and of itself does not lead to an arrest without evidence. So why provide the police with evidence, i.e., a dead woman that you were seen throwing to the ground just a few minutes prior to her death? There was no evidence of his prior crimes (if it was Jack) so the question remains why commit an act that will get you hanged after having been seen by Schwartz, when if you simply walk away we don't even know if Stride would have done anything about it if she believed he was just a drunk jerk hasseling her a bit.

There is no multiple killer who wants to be investigated by the police for those murders. Do you understand this? As a man who’d been seen throwing a prostitute around on the streets of Whitechapel in the wee hours of the morning, he would have been looked into by the police in connection with those murders.

If Stride was in a position to put the police onto his trail, he could have reasonably concluded that she had to go.

Schwartz might have had a good look at his face, but without Stride, the police would never have been able to attach a name to that face.

Who knows how Elizabeth Long would have responded to seeing him? Something about his appearance could have triggered something with her. Even if she merely said, “Yes, I think that could well have been him,” the police interest in him would have deepened. Why take the chance? Taking a few steps into the yard and cutting Stride’s throat would have been a quick and convenient solution to the problem at hand. Think like a killer.

I’ve given you a perfectly reasonable explanation of what could have occurred.

[Robert]

Hi Wyatt

The trouble is, Stride could reasonably have concluded that she had to go, too, to get away from this bloke. So why go into the yard? And why pull out a packet of cachous?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Wyatt

The trouble is, Stride could reasonably have concluded that she had to go, too, to get away from this bloke. So why go into the yard? And why pull out a packet of cachous?

the cashoo was already in her hand and she headed towards the voices/help.

[Robert]

But how can the cachous have been already in her hand? She'd just been chucked on the pavement. She must have been very attached to them to hang on to them so.

[Wyatt Earp]

Hi Wyatt

The trouble is, Stride could reasonably have concluded that she had to go, too, to get away from this bloke. So why go into the yard? And why pull out a packet of cachous?

Remember, the premise is that she knows this guy. He has perhaps been a previous customer. She has a baseline level of comfort with him. I do not think she would have entered the yard if she felt her life was in danger.

If he was being drunk and disorderly with her, I doubt that was the first time a man had been drunk and disorderly with her. The prospect of a knuckle sandwich might have been sufficient to gain her cooperation.

I have no idea why she might have taken out the cachous. To calm her nerves? Beats me.

[c.d.]

Hello Wyatt,

Your premise only makes sense if he kills Stride, Schwartz and the Pipe Man. For all he knows Schwartz is off to find the nearest P.C. and the police have sketch artists. You keep insisting that no multiple killer wants to be investigated by the police. I agree with you completely. But the B.S. man has been seen and therefore his options are limited. It is now a question of the lesser of evils. You say that Stride cold put the police on his trail. For what? Pushing her? You are assuming that this was a murder attempt but we don't know that. All that we have to go on is Schwartz's testimony. Stride is still alive when Schwartz leaves. Therefore, the B.S. man at that point can only be charged with pushing a woman. Does he want to be investigated for doing so? Absolutely not. But if it indeed was simply a push and a few harsh words he is off the hook as far as punishment. Concoct a reasonable story to tell the police and he is on his way just like the hundreds of other men who were investigated. Again I see no reason to kill her and risk being hanged when all he has committed, if he walks away when seen by Schwartz, is basically a don't do it again offense.

c.d.