The attack on Swedish housewife Mrs Meike Dalal on Thursday, September 7th 1961

[NickB]

The important thing here is that Linda was sure it was on the Tuesday.

I agree Linda went into the shop on the Tuesday. But I do think it strange, if Hanratty was the visitor, that only Mrs D and Barbara saw him - and Hanratty did not say that there was anyone else in the shop but those two.

Foot focused on Linda because she gave an earlier time ("just after 4") for when she and Barbara visited. But Mrs D and Barbara both gave a later time ("4.45") which was later than the time the man had appeared.

Foot wrote: “Barbara Ford decided that the day the man came in was the Monday because she was serving all day in the shop on the Monday and only went in for half an hour on the Tuesday.” The half an hour she gave was 4.45 to 5.15.

The possibility that the visitor called when Barbara was there on Tuesday was explored at the trial ...

Sherrard: “Did Barbara come to the shop at any time on the Tuesday?”
Dinwoodie: “Not the whole day. She called in at 4:45.”
Sherrard: “Can you say now with certainty which of the two days it was it happened, the Monday or the Tuesday?”
Dinwoodie: “The Monday.”

[Graham]

I think we must analyse the 'Sweetshop Evidence' from a purely mechanical point of view.

JH stated that the train he took to Liverpool arrived at Lime Street Station at "about 3.30pm" on 22 August. There was indeed a train leaving Euston at 10.35am which arrived at Lime Street at 3.25pm. The 'evidence' of the left luggage attendants is useless because one of them was working the 6 am - 2 pm shift that day, and the other, who worked in the afternoon, stated that he had no memory at all of Hanratty or anyone who might have resembled him.

Mrs D, bless her, said that 'a man' came into the shop, one of 29 such shops on Scotland Road in 1961, 'on the Monday' between 3.30 and 4.00 pm. JH said that the woman we now refer to as Mrs Dinwoodie had a little girl with her, and Mrs D said that her grand-daughter Barbara had been with her only on the Monday. Barbara, though, said that she and her friend Linda Walton had called in at the shop on the Tuesday at about 4.45pm and had stayed for about half an hour. Linda Walton recalled this, but she said they had been in the shop between aout 4.00pm and 5.00pm. JH always said that apart from the older woman in the shop, there was a young girl. Not a woman and two young girls.

Mrs D, thrice blessed, was very definite that 'the man' had called into the shop at "just gone 4 o'clock; the Liverpool Echos had just arrived", which would confirm that the local paper arrived every day at about this time. If JH had had arrived at Lime Street at 3.25pm there was no way he could have been in the Scotland Road sweetshop just 40 minutes later - he claimed that after his arrival at Lime Street Station he had had a 'wash and brush up', a cup of tea at the buffet, and had handed in his case to the left luggage at about 5.00 pm before he set off to search for Carlton or Tarleton Avenue, or whatever. Do you see where I'm coming from? Mrs D was quite specific about timing, and so was JH. Their timings simply do not match.

And of course the 'real' James Hanratty, the sharp-suited London geezer, would have, as was his usual custom, hailed a cab and asked the cabbie to take him to Carlton or Tarleton Avenue, Road, wherever. (Yes, I know before you ask, that he told Dixie France about the back seats of buses, but I contend that he used such repositories for unwanted stolen goods only as and when necessary).

I can't remember how many times I've posted the above, neither can I remember how many times I've posted that Mrs D said she could hardly understand 'the man's' accent - she said she thought he was either Scots or Welsh. Yet JH's accent was normal Londoner, with no 'dialectal traits' according to a phonetics expert who examined JH.

The above points, and others discussed elsewhere, demonstrate beyond reasonable argument that there is absolutely no concrete proof, in the legal sense or otherwise, that James Hanratty was in Liverpool, or anywhere near Liverpool, on Tuesday 22 August 1961. When and if such proof becomes available, I'll be the first to listen.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

I agree Linda went into the shop on the Tuesday. But I do think it strange, if Hanratty was the visitor, that only Mrs D and Barbara saw him - and Hanratty did not say that there was anyone else in the shop but those two.

Foot focused on Linda because she gave an earlier time ("just after 4") for when she and Barbara visited. But Mrs D and Barbara both gave a later time ("4.45") which was later than the time the man had appeared.

Foot wrote: “Barbara Ford decided that the day the man came in was the Monday because she was serving all day in the shop on the Monday and only went in for half an hour on the Tuesday.” The half an hour she gave was 4.45 to 5.15.

The possibility that the visitor called when Barbara was there on Tuesday was explored at the trial ...

Sherrard: “Did Barbara come to the shop at any time on the Tuesday?”
Dinwoodie: “Not the whole day. She called in at 4:45.”
Sherrard: “Can you say now with certainty which of the two days it was it happened, the Monday or the Tuesday?”
Dinwoodie: “The Monday.”

Mr Don Smith ,one of Liverpool's most experienced crime reporters ,working for the Daily Herald,[a paper quite similar to the Guardian with a high standard of ethical reporting ] interviewed Mrs Dunwoody at her home.He believed he was the first reporter to interview her."She told me " he said,"that she was,at first,sure the man came into the shop on Tuesday ,the day of the murder,but that now so many people had been asking so many questions she wasn't sure " [Paul Foot interview April 7th 1970.]

[Natalie Severn]

I think we must analyse the 'Sweetshop Evidence' from a purely mechanical point of view.

JH stated that the train he took to Liverpool arrived at Lime Street Station at "about 3.30pm" on 22 August. There was indeed a train leaving Euston at 10.35am which arrived at Lime Street at 3.25pm. The 'evidence' of the left luggage attendants is useless because one of them was working the 6 am - 2 pm shift that day, and the other, who worked in the afternoon, stated that he had no memory at all of Hanratty or anyone who might have resembled him.

Graham

After I wrote my book Graham I got a very appreciative letter from the son of one of Mr Usher's colleagues in that Lime St Left Luggage. He was adamant that Usher ,the man with two fingers missing causing his other fingers to draw together leaving him with a 'withered hand' as Hanratty had described, had indeed seen Hanratty ,[we all believed him and couldn't understand why the police refused to allow his evidence and instead only allowed another man's negative evidence who had a false arm and worked in the Gents toilet!!![Mr Stringer ] remembered him well from the altercation he had had with him about giving him a numbered ticket - rather than his name[which Usher recalled as 'ratty' ]for leaving his precious case [filled with jewellery].The man stressed that it was common practice for men to work over-as paid overtime or more usually just to help each other out and that coincides with the much more likely time Hanratty took the train at 10.20am at Euston arriving early in Lime Street at 2.22pm.Hanratty had left the Vienna Hotel at 8.30 walking to Paddington 15 minutes,taking a taxi to Euston 11 minutes therefore arriving there around 9.30 at very latest even allowing for traffic.

[Natalie Severn]

I think we must analyse the 'Sweetshop Evidence' from a purely mechanical point of view.

Mrs D, thrice blessed, was very definite that 'the man' had called into the shop at "just gone 4 o'clock; the Liverpool Echos had just arrived", which would confirm that the local paper arrived every day at about this time. If JH had had arrived at Lime Street at 3.25pm there was no way he could have been in the Scotland Road sweetshop just 40 minutes later - he claimed that after his arrival at Lime Street Station he had had a 'wash and brush up', a cup of tea at the buffet, and had handed in his case to the left luggage at about 5.00 pm before he set off to search for Carlton or Tarleton Avenue, or whatever. Do you see where I'm coming from? Mrs D was quite specific about timing, and so was JH. Their timings simply do not match.

Graham

Whether Hanratty noticed there was another girl is irrelevant-she was not being the counter helping as Barbara was.
The timing is wrong.Linda was again quite adamant in her statement that they arrived at the shop earlier at about 4 pm and stayed longer for about an hour.

[Natalie Severn]

I think we must analyse the 'Sweetshop Evidence' from a purely mechanical point of view.

And of course the 'real' James Hanratty, the sharp-suited London geezer, would have, as was his usual custom, hailed a cab and asked the cabbie to take him to Carlton or Tarleton Avenue, Road, wherever. (Yes, I know before you ask, that he told Dixie France about the back seats of buses, but I contend that he used such repositories for unwanted stolen goods only as and when necessary).


Graham

Scotland Road along with the Gorbals in Scotland was the poorest area in the country in 1961.It was famed for having a 'pawn shop on every corner' [have forgotten the complete phrase but famous .There would have been NO taxis regularly running up and down Scotland Road in 1961 between 4 and 5 pm on a
Tuesday afternoon.

[Natalie Severn]

I think we must analyse the 'Sweetshop Evidence' from a purely mechanical point of view.

I can't remember how many times I've posted the above, neither can I remember how many times I've posted that Mrs D said she could hardly understand 'the man's' accent - she said she thought he was either Scots or Welsh. Yet JH's accent was normal Londoner, with no 'dialectal traits' according to a phonetics expert who examined JH.
Graham

Hanratty was NOT a cockney speaker. He had been brought up by an Irish father and English mother and educated in a Catholic School with Irish nuns. His accent was West London /with an Irish lilt.The sweetshop lady would have been used to hearing very strong scouse and the gailic accent Hanratty had incorporated into his speech may well have sounded Gaelic accented Scottish or Gaelic accented Welsh- both these accents sounding very different from each other to us and different again to an Irish Lilted West London accent----but they are in fact from the same Gaelic root.

[moste]

Cilla Black

Hey there Lassie from Scotland Road . R.I.P. I have all your 60s vinyl singles. Lorra Lorra great memories.(wrong thread but hey, since were on Scotty road, what the heck.)

[Spitfire]

The above points, and others discussed elsewhere, demonstrate beyond reasonable argument that there is absolutely no concrete proof, in the legal sense or otherwise, that James Hanratty was in Liverpool, or anywhere near Liverpool, on Tuesday 22 August 1961. When and if such proof becomes available, I'll be the first to listen.

I agree and more to the point, the jury too must have have concluded having heard all the evidence adduced by both prosecution and defence that there was no concrete evidence putting Hanratty in Liverpool on the afternoon of 22 August 1961.

Mrs Dinwoodie's (note Dinwoodie not Dinwoody) evidence must have caused the jury some disquiet. The discrepancy in timings could be explained away by the frailty of human memory. The incident involved a stranger asking for directions in a shop at a busy time, and neither the shop assistant (Mrs Dinwoodie) nor the stranger would have had any particular reason to remember the precise time at which it occurred. What is more difficult to explain is (1) the discrepancy about the incoherent accent, Hanratty seems to have been able to make himself understood to everyone else and (2) the discrepancy as to what actually occurred, Mrs D said she left other customers to deal with the stranger, whereas Hanratty said the shop assistant went to the door of the shop to point out where he was to go.

But the jury heard all this and concluded that it did not provide an alibi for Hanratty. We do not know whether the basis for this was because (1) it was Hanratty asking for directions but it occurred on Monday or (2) it was not Hanratty, but as Hanratty's movements were well accounted for on the Monday we must assume that the jury concluded the directions inquirer of Mrs Dinwoodie was not James Hanratty.

[Graham]

Hanratty was NOT a cockney speaker. He had been brought up by an Irish father and English mother and educated in a Catholic School with Irish nuns. His accent was West London /with an Irish lilt.The sweetshop lady would have been used to hearing very strong scouse and the gailic accent Hanratty had incorporated into his speech may well have sounded Gaelic accented Scottish or Gaelic accented Welsh- both these accents sounding very different from each other to us and different again to an Irish Lilted West London accent----but they are in fact from the same Gaelic root.

Yet according to Sherrard, Hanratty had a 'normal and average young Londoner's voice'. When Hanratty was examined by an expert in speech and phonetics, it was reported that no dialectical traits were detected. Also, Michael Hanratty has a very distinct Cockney accent, so as James was brought up in the same family group there is every reason to suspect that he, too, spoke with a similarCockney accent. His voice was also described as 'quite high and feminine'. Your suggestion doesn't hold water, Nats.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Also, Michael Hanratty has a very distinct Cockney accent, so as James was brought up in the same family group there is every reason to suspect that he, too, spoke with a similarCockney accent. His voice was also described as 'quite high and feminine'.
Graham

Hi Graham...West London is not cockney which is distinctive East London .
James Hanratty was thought to have an Irish accent by Nudds when he was first asked about it .....that was undoubtedly the Irish lilt he heard that Hanratty had picked up from his Dad.Michael ,James' brother has a West London accent with a trace of Irish lilt .But I am really talking about the effect on Mrs Dunwoody's ears having heard some very strong scouse during her two days in Scotland Road and noticing Hanratty's sing song intonation may well have reminded her of Welsh or Scottish voices such as Andrew Cruikshank's when playing Dr Cameron in Dr Finlay's Casebook or the Welsh lilt of the very popular Harry Seccombe at the time -if you put Eamon Andrews in there too you can hear a similar lilt running through them all .But a really good example of a cockney accent is Barbara Windsor -----its not the same as a West London accent.Cheers Graham.

[uncle_adolph]

Yet according to Sherrard, Hanratty had a 'normal and average young Londoner's voice'. When Hanratty was examined by an expert in speech and phonetics, it was reported that no dialectical traits were detected. Also, Michael Hanratty has a very distinct Cockney accent, so as James was brought up in the same family group there is every reason to suspect that he, too, spoke with a similarCockney accent. His voice was also described as 'quite high and feminine'. Your suggestion doesn't hold water, Nats.

Graham

Perhaps it's a shame that Mrs Dinwoodie wasn't allowed to make a judgement based on the sound of his voice in the same way that Valerie Storie was.

[Natalie Severn]

Quite frankly I am astonished that all the Liverpool sightings- whether by Mrs Dunwoody and Barbara her granddaughter, Mr Kempt outside his Billiard Hall opposite Lime Street station -which was also situated dead opposite the parked Rhyl bus ... Mr Kempt saying he definitely saw a young man who looked [and acted] like James Hanratty trying to sell a gold watch sometime just before Kempt went on holiday on 26th August or Mr Usher with the withered hand whose dismissed evidence to police was never even allowed to get aired in court leaving him and his colleagues open mouthed in the Left Luggage dept of Lime Street about the police instead being in an excited huddle around a Mr Stringer who had a false arm not a withered hand as Hanratty described .

All these sightings dismissed out of hand by the prosecution yet no explanation why there was not a single sighting of Hanratty anywhere near Dorney Reach [or Slough] where they claimed he had gone to practise with a gun in his best suit and tie in a Cornfield off Marsh Lane.Not a single sighting of him even on any train heading for or arriving at Taplow Station or heading for the cornfield after getting off to practise with his gun .Instead we are to believe he arrived with a big bag of ammunition and - as if by magic unheard and unseen .Nobody except the Cobbs and their neighbour came forward describing a very different looking man with a rolled up carrier bag on that day in Marsh Lane--- a sallow skinned man with very dark eyes and dark hair brushed straight back- who the dog tried to bite by the sound of it!

But hey--- 11 sightings were made of him in Rhyl once people heard about his visit there. Not a single sighting of Hanratty anywhere near Taplow. Yet they all-the prosecution that is -insisted Hanratty was there and that he did all this very mad stuff under the cloak of darkness --- maybe they thought he had secret powers to make himself invisible with that peculiar hanky business-you know-the sort of wave thing -Tommy Cooper like - that got him invisibly transported to Taplow here where he uses same hanky to hide his face in Buckinghamshire cornfield before he makes a cruel and utterly vile monster of himself on Deadman's Hill and ends the ghastly scenario by blowing his nose on the hanky so nobody can be in any doubt that it ishis hanky when he faces Capital punishment for murder. From then on he becomes invisible again because not a single person has ever reported seeing him either then or since in Redditch East London or on his way across London with the gun and the big bag of ammunition to be placed -again unseen, with his trademark mucous ridden hanky folded on top of it all -just so everybody will know it was Hanratty that did it -on the 36A bus on the morning of 24th August 1961.He then takes the Liverpool bound train from Euston ,again in his invisiblity outfit [ because nobody ever claimed to have seen him on this train either] just so he can send a telegram to the France's at 8.45 pm from St George's Hall telephone box-another ploy to completely fox everyone into thinking he had been in Liverpool all along.Nobody ever claimed they saw Hanratty anywhere in London or Dorney Reach or Deadman's Hill over all this time but a total of at least 15 people claimed they saw him in either Liverpool or Rhyl .

[cobalt]

Hi Natalie,
All points worth repeating, but there was of course one very important sighting of James Hanratty at the scene of the crime: the one by Valerie Storie. The jury were bound to be influenced by that, despite their misgivings about possible sightings elsewhere.

The private detective engaged by the defence to try and firm up Hanratty’s alibi was called Joe Gillbanks, and his efforts have earned him some credit on this site. He may well have been a very effective Detective Sergeant in his day, and an equally proficient Private Investigator following his retirement. But Gillbanks worked directly under Bert Balmer as part of Liverpool City CID, in fact he received a commendation for disarming a murderer in 1951, the very year that Balmer was playing fast and loose with statements in the Devlin/Burns trial. Gillbanks would clearly have been viewed as one of ‘Balmer’s Boys’ by Merseyside criminals and, as such, a man to be avoided at all costs. Sending Gillbanks to make enquiries on Hanratty’s behalf amongst Liverpool ‘fences’was going to be about as productive as sending Josef Goebbels to the KPD to make enquiries about the Reichstag fire.

Before making his enquiries Gillbanks would surely have had a word with his old boss Balmer, who by 1961 was pretty much the main man on the Merseyside force, to pick up the lie of the land. The mishandling of the photographic identification of Hanratty has to raise some suspicions about what was going on.

[Spitfire]

The private detective engaged by the defence to try and firm up Hanratty’s alibi was called Joe Gillbanks, and his efforts have earned him some credit on this site. He may well have been a very effective Detective Sergeant in his day, and an equally proficient Private Investigator following his retirement. But Gillbanks worked directly under Bert Balmer as part of Liverpool City CID, in fact he received a commendation for disarming a murderer in 1951, the very year that Balmer was playing fast and loose with statements in the Devlin/Burns trial. Gillbanks would clearly have been viewed as one of ‘Balmer’s Boys’ by Merseyside criminals and, as such, a man to be avoided at all costs. Sending Gillbanks to make enquiries on Hanratty’s behalf amongst Liverpool ‘fences’was going to be about as productive as sending Josef Goebbels to the KPD to make enquiries about the Reichstag fire.

A bit hard on Gillbanks that as Hanratty sent him on a wild goose chase to find three friends with whom Hanratty stayed in Liverpool on the night of 22 August. As these friends did not exist, it was hardly surprising that Gillbanks didn't find them.

When Gillbanks was sent to the right locale (Rhyl) he managed to unearth John and "Hanratty's Landlady". It wasn't Gillbanks fault that the latter perjured herself and the jury mustn't have believed a word she said. Moreover it would seem that Sherrard did not believe in the Rhyl alibi once Mrs Jones's evidence had been discredited. He did not seek to advance it further in the Court of Appeal by calling other witnesses in support who were not available at the trial.

If Hanratty had not lied about the Liverpool alibi and disclosed his Rhyl alibi at the outset, then both the prosecution and the defence would have been better placed to investigate the alibi's validity.

The trick played by Hanratty was known as the "Ambush Alibi" and was stopped by the Criminal Justice Act 1967.