Elizabeth Stride ..who killed her ?

[Wickerman]

... That being said, anyone can cut a body open if so disposed, why they did it is the key. When you don't know why, simply assuming madness is very superficial and unsatisfying.

It would be an uphill struggle to try pass this killer off as perfectly sane.

But theres at least one of us that isn't satisfied by the myth nor the premise.

Whether we talk about a lone killer largely depends on how many victims are being considered.
There's nothing inherently wrong with the lone killer theory, we know today that lone killers can pause for a while, then take it up again. We also know they can change their style, weapon, M.O. and location.
When we are honest, and admit to the above, what justification is there to call the lone killer theory a 'myth'?

There is more fault associated with using the perceived differences as evidence of another killer, than accepting the same killer can change what he does, and how he does it. Sutcliffe being among the best examples of that.

That said, I wouldn't include the Torso murders, and I am not inclined to include Tabram.
As for the rest, I would not be so sure, perhaps the best way is to use Degrees of Probability.

[Michael W Richards]

It would be an uphill struggle to try pass this killer off as perfectly sane.

Its also an uphill struggle to assume a singularly cut throat was done by an double throat cutting-abdominal mutilator, but many folks seem comfy with that premise.

Do you deny that everyday people are killed by people who are not clinically insane? There are a myriad of reasons people kill....and within the most minute fraction of a general population, the rarest of all types of murderers, some kill for personal pleasure or internal demons. Unicorn vs horse. Do you really favour an approach that assumes the least likely scenario?

Whether we talk about a lone killer largely depends on how many victims are being considered. There's nothing inherently wrong with the lone killer theory, we know today that lone killers can pause for a while, then take it up again. We also know they can change their style, weapon, M.O. and location. When we are honest, and admit to the above, what justification is there to call the lone killer theory a 'myth'?

Again, what do American serial killers in the 20th century have to do with a mile square ghetto in 19th century London? Ill be honest as you suggest, and state without hesitation that assuming these murders are connected by a single murderer without any evidence isn't a viable technique to resolution.

All that we have Jon is 5 murdered women whose killer isn't identified. 3 got mutilated outdoors, I didn't get mutilated, and 1 was dissected in her own bed while undressed. Of that group, I can see a reason to look for connections, or evidence, that the 3 women mutilated outdoors might be connected to one individual. Ive done that. And changes in the killers skill, his knowledge and his activities from Annie to Kate suggest to me other people, or person, may have been responsible. In Liz Strides case the only reason to marry her with this group is the timing , and Mary was almost certainly killed by someone close to her. All the signs are present.

Cheers

[Abby Normal]

"Uh, how about throw some water or even a mug or two of beer on it Einstein.
Besides, it wouldn't be the murder scene any more would it Sherlock."

Hello Abby,

"Einstein", "Sherlock". What's with the insults? Can't you make your point without them? That's just not cool.

c.d.

Read his insulting patronising post to me first.
I treat people how they deserve to be treated.

[Paddy]

The double event

I always wonder why the police were so sure Liz was murdered by Jack.
If he was seen by either policeman, Schwartz or Mrs Kuer of Batty street, they would have then surely brought Lawend in to identify him. He could then have been watched and that is why he did not murder all the following month and when he did eventually it was indoors?
Pat.....

[lynn cates]

series

Hello CD.

"If you focus entirely on differences in the murders then of course you will arrive at the conclusion that they were done by different killers. But that will hold true for any set of murders."

Not necessarily. In fact, I would expect differences--but NOT after a pair like Polly and Annie which were the same with respect to their throat cuts.

And after the first two, talk of "skilful" mutilation evaporated.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

quite

Hello Pat.

"I always wonder why the police were so sure Liz was murdered by Jack."

Quite. Same for me.

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

What? The woman had almost bled dry, do you realize what kind of volume that is? Secondly, they have to remove the body which would expose them to the risk of being caught by authorities while doing so, or at the very least being seen doing so.

Just so you know I believe its at least possible that they might have considered doing just that...using Diemshitz's cart and pony. I think Louis arrived before he said he did, (primarily because a witness was at her door from around 12:56-(Goldstein), until 1 am and she saw that no-one arrived at 40 Berner at 1am), and he and some others debated how to handle the mess they found themselves in.

ok-thanks for the non sarcastic reply. I think the risk of putting her body somewhere else would be much less than leaving there and trying to come up with conspiratorial story. all they would need to do was literally take her several yard out into the street. around the corner etc. and done. then there alley isn't even a crime scene, they can easily clean up the blood and keep there mouths shut.

[Sleuth1888]

My belief is, until solid evidence is provided that can sway me to the contrary, that Elizabeth Stride was killed by Jack the Ripper.

It's too much of a coincidence that 2 women were murdered by the same modus operandi (at least to some extent) on the same day, within 45 minutes of each other, within 12 minutes walking distance apart from each other, and both in the same geographical area.

I say provide me real proof that what I've said above are only coincidences and the Stride was murdered by someone else.

[Harry D]

Just so you know I believe its at least possible that they might have considered doing just that...using Diemshitz's cart and pony. I think Louis arrived before he said he did, (primarily because a witness was at her door from around 12:56-(Goldstein), until 1 am and she saw that no-one arrived at 40 Berner at 1am), and he and some others debated how to handle the mess they found themselves in.

Now Diemschutz is getting in on the act? The plot keeps on thickening!

Michael, I have to know, do you type these posts with a straight face?

[Abby Normal]

My belief is, until solid evidence is provided that can sway me to the contrary, that Elizabeth Stride was killed by Jack the Ripper.

It's too much of a coincidence that 2 women were murdered by the same modus operandi (at least to some extent) on the same day, within 45 minutes of each other, within 12 minutes walking distance apart from each other, and both in the same geographical area.

I say provide me real proof that what I've said above are only coincidences and the Stride was murdered by someone else.

Hi Sleuth
Agree-the clincher for me is that most of the various witnesses describe a man with both stride and eddowes who was wearing a peaked cap.

Abberline also noticed it. (see sig).

[Wickerman]

My belief is, until solid evidence is provided that can sway me to the contrary, that Elizabeth Stride was killed by Jack the Ripper.

It's too much of a coincidence that 2 women were murdered by the same modus operandi (at least to some extent) on the same day, within 45 minutes of each other, within 12 minutes walking distance apart from each other, and both in the same geographical area.

I say provide me real proof that what I've said above are only coincidences and the Stride was murdered by someone else.

You are asking for proof of a coincidence?
Insurance companies exist today in large part due to coincidences.

There was a time when I was sure Stride was not a Ripper victim, these days I'm not so sure. Both sides of the argument interest me. Though I don't believe BS-man is the culprit, too noisy, brash, too loud, careless.
He drew attention to himself, not a trait we have seen elsewhere.

[Sam Flynn]

It's too much of a coincidence

The odds of winning the UK National Lottery are 14 million to one, which are significantly longer than the odds of the Double Event being the work of two murderers. Even in light of these long odds, the Lottery jackpot is won on a fairly regular basis, and the same winning numbers are often shared by more than one (non-syndicated) winner. Seen in that context, the idea that Stride and Eddowes were the victims of two different killers is not difficult to believe at all.

[Harry D]

The odds of winning the UK National Lottery are 14 million to one, which are significantly longer than the odds of the Double Event being the work of two murderers. Even in light of these long odds, the Lottery jackpot is won on a fairly regular basis, and the same winning numbers are often shared by more than one (non-syndicated) winner. Seen in that context, the idea that Stride and Eddowes were the victims of two different killers is not difficult to believe at all.

Out of interest, how did you calculate the odds of the Double-Event?

[Sam Flynn]

Out of interest, how did you calculate the odds of the Double-Event?

I roughly worked it out years ago, Harry, but no longer have the precise figures. Not that I'd pretend they were "precisely" correct - it was more an "order-of-magnitude" calculation, to give an idea of what kind of odds we're likely talking about. This was sufficient to satisfy me that two murders within an hour, on the same night, in one of the more troubled parts of London, was scarcely a mind-boggling coincidence.

A feel for the odds can be gained by dividing the night into hours, getting stats/frequencies of assaults involving knives, murder statistics, taking into account the high population-density, etc. Using those kinds of data, I think my rough figure for a "Two-Killer Double Event" was somewhere in the mid/high tens of thousands to one, which - even if out by a factor of 100 - is still two orders of magnitude smaller than the odds of scooping a Lotto jackpot.

Of course, these are all longish odds by everyday standards, but given sufficiently high Lottery ticket sales - or, in the case of the Double Event, a dense population with its fair share of violent, criminal, drunken and/or mentally disturbed residents - the numbers will turn out to be (un)lucky for some, and more often than one might think.

[Michael W Richards]

I roughly worked it out years ago, Harry, but no longer have the precise figures. Not that I'd pretend they were "precisely" correct - it was more an "order-of-magnitude" calculation, to give an idea of what kind of odds we're likely talking about. This was sufficient to satisfy me that two murders within an hour, on the same night, in one of the more troubled parts of London, was scarcely a mind-boggling coincidence.

A feel for the odds can be gained by dividing the night into hours, getting stats/frequencies of assaults involving knives, murder statistics, taking into account the high population-density, etc. Using those kinds of data, I think my rough figure for a "Two-Killer Double Event" was somewhere in the mid/high tens of thousands to one, which - even if out by a factor of 100 - is still two orders of magnitude smaller than the odds of scooping a Lotto jackpot.

Of course, these are all longish odds by everyday standards, but given sufficiently high Lottery ticket sales - or, in the case of the Double Event, a dense population with its fair share of violent, criminal, drunken and/or mentally disturbed residents - the numbers will turn out to be (un)lucky for some, and more often than one might think.

Polishing up the old skill set I see, Sam.

Youre making a valuable point here, yes...by a statistical evaluation it seems probable that the Double Event was done by one person....however, the variables in this particular warrant additional filters. Like the fact Liz had been working among the Jews at that time, relevant when killed standing in a passageway operated by local Jews outside a club that would definitely need cleaning after a large meeting, ...that the police considered this location to be populated by Anarchists, something that is perhaps proven by the riot with police in that yard the following year. Liz Strides seeming preoccupation with her presentation on that night,...flowers, breath mints, lint brushes...Liz Strides recent split with a long time beau.....the fact that it would appear by one witness that she was in that passageway before she meets her killer..see Fannys statements as to the street activity and her perch to see it all from 12:30 until 1am...off and on.

But the largest filter has to be based on the double cut throats and body positioning. Any later victim of the killer of Polly and Annie would almost certainly have inflicted upon her most, if not all, of the same physical elements. Double throat cut on the ground after subduing the victim silently. Lifting of the skirt, spreading of the legs.

Liz Stride is left untouched after a single slice that may have been inflicted upon her while she was falling.

Cheers Sam