Facial Mutilations

[Errata]

That what you cite is his evidence from the post mortem.The excised as referred to were the intestines which were seen at the crime scene and were out of the abdomen and the finding of the utetrus missing at the post mortem

Hence the coroners question which is irrefutable evidence

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I don't think the intestines were excised. They were cut, but not cut out. Excise means to remove, to cut out. The mesentaries were cut leaving the intestines loose and able to be removed from the abdominal cavity the way you can move a coiled hose over a few feet, but they were still attached. Nobody could have picked them up and walked off with them.

[lynn cates]

fashion

Hello Trevor. Thanks.

"Very good, but it will go way over the heads of some!"

Can't remember--been years since I wore one. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Neither Nichols or Chapman said they were going to solicit.

Not that this statement has any more to do with Facial Mutilations than the last series of pages do, but your remark is misleading....both in fact stated that they needed to stay out and attempt to "earn" because A, Annie wasn't getting a bite but needed to get some lodging money, and B, Pollys earnings were spent a few times before she finally decided that she needed to save something for the nights lodgings.

In the Canonical world, only these 2 victims spoke of what kind of activities they were engaged on those evenings, the rest...the majority...people just assume to have done the same for their own street-hunter-pickingoff-street-prostitutes premise to work.

How the killer engages his victim, or hers, is vital to understand what motivations for murder might exist. For example, Kates hand on the chest gesture might really indicate that she knew the man she was speaking to, and considering the time between that sighting and her murder and mutilation...approx. 8 minutes, he is the primary suspect in her murder. If she knew Sailor Man, something we don't know, then she wasn't chosen at random by a killer seeking working prostitutes. The prevailing assumption to-date. She could have been killed by someone she knew and perhaps trusted, for reasons that we can only guess at.

Cheers

[Jon Guy]

Not that this statement has any more to do with Facial Mutilations than the last series of pages do, but your remark is misleading....

No it`s not.
It`s quite clear, and more importantly, it`s correct.

both in fact stated that they needed to stay out and attempt to "earn" because A, Annie wasn't getting a bite but needed to get some lodging money, and B, Pollys earnings were spent a few times before she finally decided that she needed to save something for the nights lodgings.....

Yes, we all know the above but where is the bit about them soliciting please?

Why not just cut and paste what they reportedly said to Farmer and Donovan please.

In the Canonical world, only these 2 victims spoke of what kind of activities they were engaged on those evenings, the rest........

Again, please provide the evidence for this statement.

[Michael W Richards]

Jon:

Here are 2 accounts that corroborate my claim.

Witness at Mary Ann Nichols' inquest.

Born c.1838, aka Ellen Holland, 'Nelly', Jane Oram

Holland had returned from watching a fire at the Shadwell Dry Dock at about 2.30am on the 31st August 1888 and met Nichols at the junction of Osborn Street and Whitechapel Road. Nichols claimed that she had earned her doss money three times that night, but had spent it (she was by this time particularly drunk) and was adamant that she would earn it again, refusing to return to Wilmott's with Holland. She allegedly claimed she wanted to go somewhere where she could share a bed with a man (presumably The White House at 56 Flower and Dean Street).


Witness at Chapman Inquest Amelia Palmer

Amelia Palmer (as 'Mrs Farmer') in a sketch from the Pictorial News, 15th September 1888.
Witness at Annie Chapman's inquest. (Also known by the surname 'Farmer')

She had seen Chapman several times during the week before her murder - earlier in the week, they met in Dorset Street where Annie had reported feeling unwell. The next day they met again outside Christ Church Spitalfields; again, Annie was complaining of feeling ill and Palmer gave her 2d, warning her not to go spending it on drink.

They met again towards the end of the week and this time, Chapman complained of feeling too unwell to do anything (she was meant to go to Stratford), but stated that "it's no good my giving way. I must pull myself together and go out and get some money or I shall have no lodgings

What I said was that both women told others that they needed to "earn" the night they were killed, seems by the above I was accurate.

I suppose your rebut will be about how they intended to "earn", but Im satisfied at what I interpret their remarks to allude to. If your not, then that's your opinion. But that doesn't authorize you to call anyone out for using actual evidence instead of their own opinion.

Regards

[Bridewell]

The evidence is in the circumstances surely as much as anything? Down-and-out women talking about earning doss money around 2am in Spitalfields, a notorious vice area have only one realistic means by which they might "earn" money at that time of night.

[Bridewell]

Yes, we all know the above but where is the bit about them soliciting please?

The evidence is in the circumstances surely as much as anything? Down-and-out women talking about earning doss money around 2am in Spitalfields, a notorious vice area have only one realistic option surely - unless you can think of other possibilities?

[Michael W Richards]

The evidence is in the circumstances surely as much as anything? Down-and-out women talking about earning doss money around 2am in Spitalfields, a notorious vice area have only one realistic means by which they might "earn" money at that time of night.

Some Drive-by-logic..thanks Bridewell.I make an issue about this point because when assessing who might have killed any Canonical their circumstances at that time is decidedly relevant. Only 2 of the 5 women had opportunities to share this information with a female friend shortly before their deaths, so who really knows, but IF we begin this "series" with kills that were opportunistic and by someone who killed only by compulsion or for pleasure, then the fact that it appears only the first 2 women were looking to take strange men into a dark alley alone is very pertinent when assessing his possible link to future victims.

If hes Opportunistic, compulsive and uncontrolled mentally we would have seen a spate of subsequent attacks either successful or not immediately following the first 2 within 10 days. If he patiently waited a full month until the heat died down, then he is consciously controlling his murderous impulses, which is contradictory to the only thing that he might have revealed in the way he met and killed Polly and Annie.

[Rosella]

Kate Eddowes was stony broke when she left her boyfriend Kelly at 2pm on the day of her death. She said she was going to borrow money from her daughter but didn't find her.

When next she was seen that evening she was drunk outside 29 Aldgate and making a disturbance. You don't get drunk enough to make a stir on a couple of drinks, even on an empty stomach, so how do you think she made enough money to make herself pie-eyed, Michael? Just sidled inside a pub and asked for credit?

Mary Kelly's boyfriend knew how she was supporting herself after he lost his job and said he objected to it. (Whether he really did or not, we don't know.) However, Mary was out intermittently walking the streets on a cold night before she died and I really don't think she was out there in that weather to admire the scenery. She took at least one man (Blotchyface) to her room.

All the C-5 and Martha did some casual prostitution if and when the circumstances of their lives demanded it. They did it to get rent, to get extra food at times and to get drink. They were no different to many of the women around them. The fact that several of them might have had other occupations like cleaning and sewing doesn't alter that, IMO.

[lynn cates]

Who buys the drinks?

Hello Rosella. Someone may have bought her drinks. After all, there were no signs of recent "connection."

Cheers.
LC

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Rosella. Someone may have bought her drinks. After all, there were no signs of recent "connection."

Cheers.
LC

Lynn
In the world of prostitution connection has several different meanings

[Wickerman]

In fact penetration was often avoided by the more streetwise ladies.

[c.d.]

In fact penetration was often avoided by the more streetwise ladies.

I think I have dated some of their descendants.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Rosella. Someone may have bought her drinks. After all, there were no signs of recent "connection."

Cheers.
LC

I think that's a reasonable answer cd, someone must have bought the drinks because her state of inebriation is not consistent with the working hours of street prostitutes of the era. She was drunk by 8pm.

Rosella,

We don't know that Mary was "walking the streets" on her last night at all, for one, there is no evidence of it. The man she took to her room was serenaded for over an hour, hardly street whore practice, and the fact that she was drunk could mean that Blotchy or someone else spotted her drinks that night. Blotchy sounds less than attractive, Mary was considered attractive, so I can see a storyline that has him buying her drinks so she might spend time with him.

What you seem to be missing with your review of Unfortunates and their fallback routine of street solicitation is the recognition that many did so as a last resort to pay for a bed, (which is why they are called Unfortunates not Prostitutes)...like it would seem Polly and Annie were forced to do. Mary however has a room in her name, to herself, unlike all the other women in the C5, and she has no immediate need for money to sleep indoors on that night.

What is missing for your assumption to have any momentum is any evidence at all that Liz, Kate and Mary were doing what Polly and Annie admitted they were doing on the nights they were killed. There is none.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Based on a few recent posts it would seem some believe Kate was soliciting while incarcerated