Did the Seaside Home ID happen?

[Jeff Leahy]

Thanks Jeff

I know you're following both boards, but to summarise what's going on over at Howard's site:

Debra Arif has established that the photographer, "Henry Shaw" (aka Chaim Shockaczewski), was only born in 1880 - so this photograph is highly unlikely to be Late Victorian. On that basis, it's no wonder that Ed Stow couldn't find Shaw's studio listed in the 1899 Trade Directory - the kid would surely have been too young to have owned his own studio by that time.

In addition, I've found online a few of Shaw's photos (from his "Rembrandt Studio" in 76-78 Commercial Road), which stem from the early 1920s. Finally, the girl in the photo looks to be in her 20s, and Matilda Kozminski was born in 1890.

All the above points to the strong probability that the photo was taken sometime after 1910. If you can find a firm date, and establish the actual identities of the sitters, that would be brilliant.

Hi Garth yeah I'm also following on Facebook so it does become confusing

"It seems that the photographer was a Henry Shaw. Clearly, it really makes sense that the photograph was taken around 1920. Isaac´s first son Mark Isaac was 48 years old in 1920 and the second son Woolf was 42 years of old in 1920". Karsten says this

It seems probable that the family believed its a photo of Issac but would seem more probable given the 1920 theory that its one of his sons with his children. But as you say ages can be deceptive.

We should all be careful of family traditions, young minds often miss remember stuff

Yours Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

It seems probable that the family believed its a photo of Issac but would seem more probable given the 1920 theory that its one of his sons with his children.

That sounds eminently plausible to me, Jeff, and it fits the setting of the photograph perfectly. Proud dad sitting down, with his beloved children standing behind him, one on either side.

[pinkmoon]

I noted with interested in this mornings Daily Mail that a new picture of Issac has been published.

If this photograph is of Isaac surely it gives some credence to a Holloway connection. Surely the pretence of Aaron Kozminski as a poor Polish Jew eating from the gutter can know longer be 'argued in earnest by the Kosminski neah sayers..

If it is Issac it is a remarkable new incite into the Kozminski family that holds out far more wealth than previously considered

It also opens up questions of Shabbey gentile and the clothes that might have been available to Aaron, especially if he choose to change his appearance after the double event and the Batty Street incident. Could the man described by Hutchinson have been Kozminski?

Yours Jeff

Hello jeff good to see you back posting again.What people have forgotten about with these murders is the fact that they had a pattern committed on 8th,9th,30th,31th,of the month now surely this tells us that who ever was doing this was not local because we would have had a more random pattern to the dates of the murders .Someone was travelling to Whitechapel to commit these crimes and we were due one at the end of December it didn't happen though did it quite interesting that Druitt might well have committed suicide on the 1st of the month.

[Sam Flynn]

What people have forgotten about with these murders is the fact that they had a pattern committed on 8th,9th,30th,31th,of the month.

That's not much of a pattern, though, is it? Honestly, now. That might explain why people forget about it.

this tells us that who ever was doing this was not local because we would have had a more random pattern

If anything, I'd expect randomness to be more supportive of the idea of a local murderer than an outsider. Whereas a local murderer is able to strike practically at will, the "commuting" killer would not, on balance, have such flexibility. Over time, one might expect to see more patterns emerging in the murders of the planning commuter, than in those of the opportunist local.

[pinkmoon]

That's not much of a pattern, though, is it? Honestly, now. That might explain why people forget about it.If anything, I'd expect randomness to be more supportive of the idea of a local murderer than an outsider. Whereas a local murderer is able to strike practically at will, the "commuting" killer would not, on balance, have such flexibility. Over time, one might expect to see more patterns emerging in the murders of the planning commuter, than in those of the opportunist local.

If kosminski was our killer then all he had to do was open the front door take a short walk and he would come across a very good choice of victims he would be able to kill when ever he wanted and the murder dates would be more scattered like I said before the evidence tells us that someone was visiting the area to commit these awfull crimes it's a forgotten fact about these crimes.

[lynn cates]

old age

Hello Howard. No, not a bad looking chap. But must have died decades ago from old age.

I mean, if her were alive today he'd be about . . . (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

face it

Hello Gareth.

"That's not much of a pattern, though, is it? Honestly, now."

Bingo. No, it isn't. It is like finding the face of the Blessed Virgin when pouring syrup.

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

If kosminski was our killer then all he had to do was open the front door take a short walk and he would come across a very good choice of victims he would be able to kill when ever he wanted and the murder dates would be more scattered like I said before the evidence tells us that someone was visiting the area to commit these awfull crimes it's a forgotten fact about these crimes.

Hi Pink

I guess it depends how you see the crimes and who you believe the victims were?

I tend to include Emma Smith and Alice Mckenzie which gives a wider more random spread.

That said if I consider Kozminski I tend to see him as an odd Job man, possibly watching family premises at night. I believe Hair Dress relates to his original trade. We are after all looking at wealthy tradesmen from Poland.

Also if we take on board the Batty Street lodger incident then its possible Kozminski was locked up on the 14th, which would have fitted the pattern?

Then we have the possibility his family were involved placing him out of harms way at various points.

More importantly we just don't know how many failed attempts were made by the killer?

So while the bank holiday patterns are interesting or were that connected to the Sabbath? I feel it a little like a red Herring.

To be honest I'm more interested in the knew photographs at present and the kozminski family features so may be posting on other site more as its more upload friendly but I keep an eye out on cross platforms, which reminds me I have some work to complete for H division

Catch you soon

Yours Jeff

[John G]

Hello jeff good to see you back posting again.What people have forgotten about with these murders is the fact that they had a pattern committed on 8th,9th,30th,31th,of the month now surely this tells us that who ever was doing this was not local because we would have had a more random pattern to the dates of the murders .Someone was travelling to Whitechapel to commit these crimes and we were due one at the end of December it didn't happen though did it quite interesting that Druitt might well have committed suicide on the 1st of the month.

Hi Pink,

Didn't nearly all the murders take place at weekends or during Bank Holidays? I believe it's been suggested that the dates imply the killer was probably in gainful employment and killed on his days off.

[pinkmoon]

Hi Pink,

Didn't nearly all the murders take place at weekends or during Bank Holidays? I believe it's been suggested that the dates imply the killer was probably in gainful employment and killed on his days off.

Quite possibly but how easy would it be for kosminski to pop out for a short while when ever he felt the urge to kill he wouldn't have been away from home to long would he.

[John G]

Quite possibly but how easy would it be for kosminski to pop out for a short while when ever he felt the urge to kill he wouldn't have been away from home to long would he.

Yes, Kosminksi may have found it extremely difficult to get away, particularly as the family seemed to have serious concerns and may have been closely watching him.

The Kosminski family also seemed to be upwardly socially mobile. Could it be that Aaron was becoming an embarrassment to the family and they were eager to get him out of the way, I.e institutionalised? Might not that have influenced what they cofided to the police, I.e about the seriousness of their concerns? Could they have exaggerated those concerns?

[S.Brett]

Hello!

A brother of Aaron Kozminski, Woolf Abrahams, run a business with his brother-in-law and cousin Jacob Cohen. It seems, that Kosminski occupied several shops (Leman Street, see Cox - Butchers Row, see CID officer Sagar) in the East End at the time of the murders. CID officer Cox talked about "his place of business, the shop of the man, his little shop, his own house". Maybe, between the several shops there was a "own shop". In my opinion, it is possible that a brother, maybe Woolf, run a shop together with Aaron Kozminski (as later with Cohen and Davis). In this case Aaron might have (mainly) worked and lived in this shop at the time of the murders. At weekends and during Bank Holidays there were no customers and probably no family members when he came back with bloody clothes and "body parts" and other trophies. During the week it is absolutely possible that the brother was already in the shop when Aaron came back from his late walks abroad and nightly prowls (Cox).

Provided, of course, Cox and Sagar were talking about the same man as Anderson, Swanson and Macnaghten (Kosminski).

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello!

A brother of Aaron Kozminski, Woolf Abrahams, run a business with his brother-in-law and cousin Jacob Cohen. It seems, that Kosminski occupied several shops (Leman Street, see Cox - Butchers Row, see CID officer Sagar) in the East End at the time of the murders. CID officer Cox talked about "his place of business, the shop of the man, his little shop, his own house". Maybe, between the several shops there was a "own shop". In my opinion, it is possible that a brother, maybe Woolf, run a shop together with Aaron Kozminski (as later with Cohen and Davis). In this case Aaron might have (mainly) worked and lived in this shop at the time of the murders. At weekends and during Bank Holidays there were no customers and probably no family members when he came back with bloody clothes and "body parts" and other trophies. During the week it is absolutely possible that the brother was already in the shop when Aaron came back from his late walks abroad and nightly prowls (Cox).

Provided, of course, Cox and Sagar were talking about the same man as Anderson, Swanson and Macnaghten (Kosminski).

Are you suggesting around the junction of Old Montagu street and Brick lane, possibly Black Lion Yard?

Has anyone searched for possible ownership or trade names?

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Are you suggesting around the junction of Old Montagu street and Brick lane, possibly Black Lion Yard?

Has anyone searched for possible ownership or trade names?

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Yes, I am suggesting the area Brick Lane/ Osborne Street - Old Montague Street/ Wentworth Street (included Black Lion Yard- is the reason Kaminsky (Fido?-). There took place the first attacks on Smith (junction of these streets) and Tabram (George Yard). With the exception of Stride the Ripper never crossed the Whitechapel Road/ High Street. And in the case of Stride, Aaron´s brother Woolf was living near the crime scene.

Today I think if Aaron Kozminski was Jack the Ripper then he worked (and lived -at times-) near George Yard and the junction Osborne Street/ Brick Lane...

Bear in mind; possibly the shop was short-lived (perhaps a few months).

Yours, Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,

Yes, I am suggesting the area Brick Lane/ Osborne Street - Old Montague Street/ Wentworth Street (included Black Lion Yard- is the reason Kaminsky (Fido?-). There took place the first attacks on Smith (junction of these streets) and Tabram (George Yard). With the exception of Stride the Ripper never crossed the Whitechapel Road/ High Street. And in the case of Stride, Aaron´s brother Woolf was living near the crime scene.

Today I think if Aaron Kozminski was Jack the Ripper then he worked (and lived -at times-) near George Yard and the junction Osborne Street/ Brick Lane...

Bear in mind; possibly the shop was short-lived (perhaps a few months).

Yours, Karsten.

They were clearly used to moving often

Yours Jeff