Did the Seaside Home ID happen?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Gary, as I said Bill Beadle is a recognised author and was at the time Chairman of the Whitechapel society. Bill has studied the autopsy reports in great detail, its always struck me that the only thing we really know for certain about Jack the Ripper is the marks and cuts he left on the bodies themselves. Interestingly the various marks and bruises suggest the killer altered his MO a significant amount from crime to crime (Depending where you start and finish) Some being attacked from the front , others from behind, so I very much welcomed Bills input.

On Human thought and behaviour however we tended to rely on Harley street specialist Dr Lars Davidson.



I'm not quiet sure where your getting your definition from, certainly not the FBI. But I guess the word 'little' here is somewhat subjective. Theres a big difference asking someone for a debate on Plato, and asking someone for a quick shag.



Have you looked at the MJK photograph? How much more appalling do you require?



Again the difference between a conversation on the Big Bang theory and picking up a prostitute



Yes I agree. My expert advise was that Schizophrenics are by and large pretty harmless and in the case of violence they would expect use of an outside catalyst either drugs or Alcohol.

Remember Schwart describes BSM as walking as if drunk.



Both Kelly Smith and Stride show possible signs of struggle. It depends how you view each murder. My opinion is that Nichols was attacked from behind. Chapman from the front, Stride from Behind (Possibly with a legature), Eddows (More difficult) but if pushed from behind, Kelly was attacked from the Front through the sheets.



Yes I agree, see my previous posts on level of conversation. I personally think these women at least had seen him around. He didn't stick out. Perhaps he did offer presents (Thats very speculative) But he would have had reason to be in those areas. I think Pet food was significant at Hanbury street and Bucks Row.

But these women took the client to their spot, the blitz attack happening very quickly when they arrived.



Its always been a bit of a Myth that none heard anything. Indeed at least two witnesses may have done so. Harriot Lilly in bucks Row heard gurgling Noise consistent with the Stride attack… 'She screamed three times but not very loudly'. And Albert Cadoshe going to the tiolet almost certainly heard something hit the fence, which would match the later time of death theory. (Day light) And of course crys of murder were heard and ignored at the MJK Millers Court.

Actually the biggest mystery is how none appears to have heard Tabram being stabbed while still alive.

OK Lets look it this in detail:

The FBI profile described Jack the Ripper as "white male of average intelligence, in his mid to late twenties, who was single and had never been married. Hazelwood and Douglas claimed that the ripper was the type of killer "as opportunity presents itself" and thought that he "wasn't nearly clever as he was lucky"

Pretty much the conclusion of the Definitive Story documentary.

Amoung other things, The FBI profile noted that the Ripper lived near the crime scenes: had "poor personal higene and a dishevelled appearance"

Mrs Long "Shabbie Gentile"

"Was a loner, who "Had difficulty interacting appropriately with anyone, but particularly women" "Was mentally disturbed" "Was sexually inadequate, with a lot of internal rage against women" who "Simultainously hated and feared women" and "did not have a degree of medical knowledge"

As Rob House says in Scotland Yards prime suspect : " These aspects of the FBI's profile clearly seem to fit Kozminski"

The FBI profile of Jack shows he fits the description of a disorganised-type serial killer…"We thought that said Hazelwood"because of the locations where he committed four of five crimes. They were outdoors-they were on the streets or in a court yard- very high risk crime. In other words, whoever this person was, was almost oblivious to the risk"

This is supported in Defintive by Dr Lars Davidson.

Hazelwood " I don't see how anyone who knows anything at all about violent crime can say that was an organised crime" Hazelwood later added "The disorganised offender also generally uses a "Blitzstyle attack" and kills suddenly, often from behind, as the Ripper probably did"

I think thats fairly conclusive that my opinion that Jack the Ripper was a disorganised serial killer using blitz attacks is supported by most experts in the field. And at present I see no reason to revisit this part of The Definitive Story Documentary.

Trusting that clarify's



She was after money not a lecture on Dawin.



So does your average town Fox



Yes agreed. I also think that it can be demonstrated that he 'Occupied various premisis' near the murder scenes



As I've pointed out this is a Myth.



Hold on a minute…Isn't that actually what this thread is about?

That is pure opinion on your part NOT fact. The two people in charge of the investigation appear to contradict this statement!



I've been study these crimes for almost 15 years now. I've simply in that time eliminated the other suspects. I am more than capable of taking a Rythian stand point, its what I do..

Anyway I hope that clarifies my position on disorganised serial killers, I don't what to stray to far from the ID and when it happened at the heart of this thread

Many thanks

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff
You need to take the FBI profiling method in general and FBI profilers specifically with a grain of salt. keep in mind that when they came up with the profile for the ripper and linked to Kosminski at that time they were no experts on the ripper case. half the people on these boards know more about jack the Ripper than they do.

And they will admit that it is an art as well as science. depending on the individual profiler-you can get a different answer every time.

Also, after reading several of Douglas's books, I cant help feel a bit of arrogance on his part-according to him hes helped solve everything from Jack the ripper to JonBenet ramsay case!

I also lived through the DC beltway sniper scare and the profile the so called FBI experts came up with was so off the mark it was laughable.

And as I said before-in there categorization of organized v. disorganized killers, they didn't take into account that non modern serial killers didn't have cars TO AID IN HIDING AND DISPOSING OF THE BODIES.
A major reason they classified the ripper into disorganized category-because he was forced to leave the bodies where he killed them.

They disregarded or downplayed his planning. Which includes searching for and targeting a suitable victim, the ruse scheme to get them into a secluded area, quick, efficient and silent kill, perception to know when someone was coming and when to escape, layout of streets to facilitate this, and probable general knowledge of police beats.

Unless you think he hid in the shadows(near where the victims were found) waiting for a prostitute(and only a prostitute) to come by and pounced on them like a Mexican jumping spider, or randomly wandered around until he just came upon a victim(and only a prostitute)-then the only thing that could be remotely described as "blitz" would be the moment he actually killed them.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff
You need to take the FBI profiling method in general and FBI profilers specifically with a grain of salt. keep in mind that when they came up with the profile for the ripper and linked to Kosminski at that time they were no experts on the ripper case. half the people on these boards know more about jack the Ripper than they do..

I didn't invent the terms organised or disorganised…They did.

I'm just saying the experts I've spoken to and quiet a few Ripperologists say JAck was a disorganised serial killer and nothing that has been said here deters me from that evaluation.

And they will admit that it is an art as well as science. depending on the individual profiler-you can get a different answer every time..

Yes thats correct.

I also lived through the DC beltway sniper scare and the profile the so called FBI experts came up with was so off the mark it was laughable..

As you say profiling both Suspect and geographical are guide lines.

And as I said before-in there categorization of organized v. disorganized killers, they didn't take into account that non modern serial killers didn't have cars TO AID IN HIDING AND DISPOSING OF THE BODIES.
A major reason they classified the ripper into disorganized category-because he was forced to leave the bodies where he killed them..

Yes, no attempt was made to hide or dispose of the bodies.

They disregarded or downplayed his planning. Which includes searching for and targeting a suitable victim, the ruse scheme to get them into a secluded area, quick, efficient and silent kill, perception to know when someone was coming and when to escape, layout of streets to facilitate this, and probable general knowledge of police beats..

What planning…serario.

JAck ..Hey bitch how much for a shag

Prostitute.. Tupence half penny

Jack..Do ya do extras

Prostitute… No only basic

Jack …OK

Prostitute…Come with me, follow me , I know somewhere quiet…

Thats al that was required its hardly a plan, its just something he hit upon..remember the early attacks Annie Milwood were very different.

Unless you think he hid in the shadows(near where the victims were found) waiting for a prostitute(and only a prostitute) to come by and pounced on them like a Mexican jumping spider, or randomly wandered around until he just came upon a victim(and only a prostitute)-then the only thing that could be remotely described as "blitz" would be the moment he actually killed them.

No I simply think he blitz attacked and casually walked away. He simply lived near or had premises near the murder locations so disappeared.

And as Anderson clearly says , he was given help by his people

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

PS And Jack would need to know the police beats, though he probably knew them well, that was taken care for him by the woman he killed, she would have to know her patch like the back of her hand.

The victims arranged their own murders

Yours Jeff

[pinkmoon]

PS And Jack would need to know the police beats, though he probably knew them well, that was taken care for him by the woman he killed, she would have to know her patch like the back of her hand.

The victims arranged their own murders

Yours Jeff

I totally agree with you about the women sadly playing a large part in their own demise.Who ever jack the ripper was he didn't have to be someone local he might well have been but he might just as well have been some one who visited the area to commit his murders.

[John G]

Keppel et al. (2005) took the view that the murders were planned and organized: in fact, they list planning as a signature characteristic:

"Seventh, the attacks were planned. The killer brought his weapon to the crime scene, and he took it with him when he left. It is unlikely that he needed to use the weapon to instill a sense of fear and force compliance from the victim since they were incapacitated quickly through stabbing and cutting...No evidence was left at the crime scene by the killer, which also shows pre-planning and organization...The absence of a struggle with the victims shows pre-planning and organization. His planning was also evidenced in his choice of public murder sites that allowed him to conduct his crimes largely undetected and to slip away unnoticed in high traffic areas...The increasing amount of time spent and the privacy required in committing theses murders would necessitate pre-planning and organization and prior knowledge and/ or familiarity with the murder locations. "

[Harry D]

Disorganised with organised elements would be my best bet.

It's only with the benefit of hindsight that we can view the murderer to be some kind of evil genius, because he got away with it. When you look at all the close shaves he had and the sheer audacity of mutilating women in public places it has the hallmarks of a disorganized risk taker. As for the killer memorizing the policemen's beats, this only works on the basis that their timings are always precise, and that the coppers are never ahead or behind schedule, or that he could lure the victim, kill them, and do his thing at the exact time needed to avoid detection.

[pinkmoon]

Disorganised with organised elements would be my best bet.

It's only with the benefit of hindsight that we can view the murderer to be some kind of evil genius, because he got away with it. When you look at all the close shaves he had and the sheer audacity of mutilating women in public places it has the hallmarks of a disorganized risk taker. As for the killer memorizing the policemen's beats, this only works on the basis that their timings are always precise, and that the coppers are never ahead or behind schedule, or that he could lure the victim, kill them, and do his thing at the exact time needed to avoid detection.

There is no doubt if he carried on killing his luck would have ran out I still think it is possible that someone did see him shortly before,after or even during one of the murders but never came forward.

[Jeff Leahy]

There is no doubt if he carried on killing his luck would have ran out I still think it is possible that someone did see him shortly before,after or even during one of the murders but never came forward.

Well if MacNaughten is to be believed he was seen leaving Mitre Sq probably by PC Harvey

And if Dr Blackwells estimate of time of death is correct then Schwartz witnessed Strides murder

Yours Jeff

[Harry D]

PC Harvey never reported seeing anything suspicious, though.

I wonder why he was booted from the force. Do we know?

[Jeff Leahy]

PC Harvey never reported seeing anything suspicious, though.

I wonder why he was booted from the force. Do we know?

Its one for Monty Harry…but I know he has always been curious about the tightness of the various PC accounts in and around the square that night.

The timings are extremely, well extreme

Yours Jeff

[Bridewell]

PC Harvey never reported seeing anything suspicious, though.

I wonder why he was booted from the force. Do we know?

His personal file contains various documents concerning his appointment (reference letters from memory) but nothing else. The only allusion to his sacking is the single word "Dismissed" in heavy pencil on the cover. (It's held, with others, at the London Metropolitan Archive which is well worth a visit if you've not been).

[Harry D]

Would it be a stretch to link his dismissal to the Eddowes murder?

[Bridewell]

Would it be a stretch to link his dismissal to the Eddowes murder?

I believe (memory) he was dismissed on 1st July 1889. It's entirely speculative but I've wondered the same thing myself. That said, a delay of 9 months seems rather long so probably something prosaic like drinking on duty / drunkenness.

[Wyatt Earp]

There seems to be some confusion about the use of the word “blitz” in this thread.

I think that many of us here are using this word in a colloquial sense, that is, as a general term to describe an attack that was swiftly decisive and completely unexpected by the victim.

However, it also has a specific meaning within a system of classification, and that seems to be where Garry’s coming from.

This is from the recent F.B.I. report, Serial Murder: Pathways for Investigations (you can get it for free off the Internet):

“The primary means an offender used to approach and gain access to the victims were as follows:

Ruse was defined as a trick or con to gain access to the victim.

Blitz was defined as an immediate physical attack, without any verbal interaction.

Surprise was defined as a situation where the offender utilized stealth, and capitalized on circumstances, locations, or timing to confront the victim” (p. 11).

By the way, this report finds the organized/disorganized dichotomy to be of "limited utility" (p. 5).

[Errata]

Both experts I interviewed spoke with caveats and qualifiers. Thats how expert opinion usual arrives. Neither could give a precise diagnosis without one to one with a person.

They gave their opinion to the best of there ability given the limited amount of information available. YTheir opinions largely based on Kozminski's age and the illness development.

Guesses are good. They are useful. Pronouncement are bad. They speak of fact an knowledge we don't have. But it's a practical consideration. If we slap a diagnosis on a suspect, we have to view everything they do through the filter of that diagnosis. If Kosminski is a schizophrenic, then not only does that account for delusions, but we have to assume cognitive deficits even when not delusional. We have to assume some of the physical symptoms. And we have to assume that murders are either a product of his delusions, or in spite of his delusions and other attendant problems that go along with schizophrenia. We get locked in to a bunch of "must" and "must nots" very quickly, and given our lack of information on Kosminski, that paints everyone into a corner very quickly.

Consider this. If you go into a police station and say that a schizophrenic shoved you in the street, they will arm themselves for bear on their way out the door. If you substitute "schizophrenic" for "some crazy guy", they will barely bother to take a report. Our reaction and assumptions about the specifics of schizophrenia are immediate. And you may do yourself a disservice attaching the label, especially since it IS just a guess. An intellectual exercise to diagnose a long dead patient is one thing, to make assumptions based on that guess of a diagnosis is another.

I'm not certain if your 'Axis' would be what they call in the UK 'Clusters' in sounds like your talking cluster B. So I agree with that if they equate.

As I've said before there does not seem to be world wide accord. The scandivinians having different results, schizophrenia having higher proportions of Grandious in the far East. Its something I'd like to discover more about.

I absolutely forgot that the IDC has different terms. Yes, Axis II is Cluster B generally. We have more disorders in Axis II, but no subcategories which Cluster B does. It comes out flush in the end.

There are all kinds of inequalities in the mentally ill. Bipolar is mostly predominant in Eastern Europeans, ADHD is predominantly in American and British populations, far less common in Continental European populations, and nigh unheard of in Asia and Africa. And OCD rarely appears east of Italy.

Schizophrenia is different though. It's pretty equal everywhere, the only differences are in the qualities of the delusions, which do differ according to culture. It is not surprising that more American schizophrenics believe they are Superman, more Brits think they are royalty, religious people have religious delusions, and cultures with possession tend towards a belief in possession. The biology of the disease does not dictate the scope of the delusion. The person suffering does. It's why some schizophrenics appear to "correct" their lives with their delusions. The mechanism of delusion is the same in everyone, whether schizophrenic or insomniac. But no content comes with it. The content of the delusion come from culture, religion, surroundings, mostly emotions. A person who has a delusion while feeling good will have grandiose delusions. If they also come from a culture with active gods, they may become a god. If the area of the brain that controls elevated mood is compromised and always triggers with the delusion, they will always think they are a god. And people remember their delusions. When they start feeling it again, they remember the last time, so often as not pick up where they left off. It's pretty mundane really. It's as if you were going to write a story. The story you write depends on the same things a delusion depends on. And if you were going to write a second story, it's as likely to be a sequel as not.

Yes I apolguise if my comments caused any offence that was not intended. I can only add that the updated program will be looking at mental health in more detail we have already interviewed a number of experts on 19th century Asylums. It is not my intention to vilify people with mental health problems, actually the exact opposite. I will continue to treat the subject with as much sensitivity as possible. Its good to be reminded that we are dealing with real people and real lives. Poeple who have a pretty tough time and are often pushed under the carpet in the UK….much to be done

Oh no offense taken. And I'm not entirely sure why offense is ever taken, but it is, so I thought it fair to warn you. I was a little kid when I was diagnosed. When I was 8 I was diagnosed with Manic Depression. At 36 I'm Bipolar. By the time I die I may have been two other things. The title doesn't matter. Or at least, it doesn't matter to people who understand that there are real problems in the world, and the actual disease rather than the name it goes by is one of them. I mean, it's not Crazy Bitch Syndrome. That I might find offensive. Occasionally accurate, but offensive.

And I don't think for a second that you are maligning the mentally ill. My objection is that a diagnosis is bad for thinking, not bad for mentally ill people. The way to avoid offense is that if someone who is in a better position to know than you says something is or is not so, believe them. No offense can be given that cannot be completely undone by the offenders willingness to learn. Since you have never been other than willing to learn, whether from me or from experts or books, we have no problems. If you listen to what mentally ill people have to say, really listen, then even if you disagree in the end you should be fine. It's the judgement that bothers us. Not reasoned and considered disagreement. Just like you would listen to me about Judaism because I am Jewish over some guy who read a book once.

Drugs and Mental health, not a good mixture.

Really not.

I'm trying to piece together more about Aarons family environment, his wider family and the trades they undertook.

While his brother was a master Taylor, and his brother in law a Boot maker, His grandfather on his Mothers side was a Butcher. So he grew up in these environments. "He occupied several premises"

Yours Jeff

Those things might inform his delusions. Of course tanning chemicals and adhesives can also cause delusions. Either as a result of damage from ingesting toxic chemicals or even just from inhaling. It would be very hard to rule out environmental factors as the cause of his problems, not just as something that informed his delusions.