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A Killer Other Than the B.S. Man?

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  • stretch

    Hello John. Thanks.

    Yes, a bit convoluted, but perhaps a bit of a stretch?

    Cheers.
    LC

    Comment


    • reasonable

      Hello Abby. If we are being reasonable, then surely we wish to discuss the many anomalies in Schwartz's testimony?

      Cheers.
      LC

      Comment


      • Originally posted by John G View Post
        Regarding PC Smith's timings. If, as I've suggested, he arrived on Berner Street around 12:45, rather than 12:30-12:35, then Mortimer's evidence clearly makes much more sense. Thus, she said she went to her doorstep after hearing the measured tread of a PC, presumably Smith. However, if we accept PC Smith's time estimate, she should have seen Charles Letchford, Morris Eagle and Joseph Lave, but she didn't see any of those people and they didn't see her.

        Moreover, she said she remained outside for about 10 minutes, before hearing a pony and cart passing about 4 minutes later. However, based on the earlier time estimates, this means she was outside between 12:30-40 or 12:35-45, with Louis D arriving between 12:44 and 12:49, which doesn't make any sense.

        However, if PC Smith saw Stride and the newspaper parcel suspect at around 12:45, then the killer could have waited until Smith had left Berner Street before inveigling Stride into Dutfield's Yard. We can then speculate that he was interrupted by Mortimer. If he was JtR, then he may well have flead after Mortimer went inside , deciding it was too risky to remain in the Yard, I.e to effect the mutilations, especially considering the presence of the club.
        Hi John G. Is this more piss taking? Mortimer was at her doorway from just after the Schwartz incident would have happened until she saw Leon Goldstein pass through a few minutes before 1am. The streets were silent at this time, with fits with Schwartz. In fact, there's nothing about Fanny Mortimer's evidence that doesn't make sense and in fact she's probably the most reliable witness (when it comes to what she saw herself) because she's actually corroborated by Leon Goldstein. We just shouldn't put a lot of stock in the '10 minute' window since that's an estimate.

        Yours truly,

        Tom Wescott

        Comment


        • Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
          Hello John. Thanks.

          Yes, a bit convoluted, but perhaps a bit of a stretch?

          Cheers.
          LC
          Hello Lynn,

          Yes, Post 160 certainly was. I think the simpler scenario I outlined in Post 195 is better. Take Schwartz out of the scenario and things make a lot more sense. In fact, if PC Smith did get his times mixed up, as I believe he probably did, then even Fanny Mortimer's evidence makes sense!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
            Hi John G. Is this more piss taking? Mortimer was at her doorway from just after the Schwartz incident would have happened until she saw Leon Goldstein pass through a few minutes before 1am. The streets were silent at this time, with fits with Schwartz. In fact, there's nothing about Fanny Mortimer's evidence that doesn't make sense and in fact she's probably the most reliable witness (when it comes to what she saw herself) because she's actually corroborated by Leon Goldstein. We just shouldn't put a lot of stock in the '10 minute' window since that's an estimate.

            Yours truly,

            Tom Wescott
            Hi Tom,

            No. If we accept the 10 minute estimate then it means she went outside around 12:45. If she heard the measured tread of a police officer just before that, as she claimed, then that means PC Smith passed around 12:45. If she was outside for more than 10 minutes then why didn't she see the following: Schwartz, Pipeman, BS man, Lave, Eagle, Letchford? And, if PC Smith did pass at 12:45 that seriously undermines Schwartz.

            As I've noted several times now, Smith's 12:30-12:35 estimate was probably based on his assumption that he arrived back on Berner Street at around 1:00am- he said his beat took around 25-30 minutes to complete. But this can't possibly be right. PC Lamb was already there when he arrived, and Lamb got to Dutfield's Yard around 1:05. Moreover, shortly after arriving Smith went for the ambulance, noticing Johnston's arrival just as he was leaving. And Johnston said he arrived about 2-3 minutes before Dr Blackwell, meaning he got there about 1:12-1:13. That suggests Smith arrived about 1:10 not 1:00 as he thought. And, if his timings were out by 10 minutes, then that places his sighting of newspaper parcel man and Stride between 12:40 and 12:45, not 12:30 and 12:35. It also means Mortimer's evidence makes a lot more sense I.e Mortimer and Smith's evidence are reconciled.
            Last edited by John G; 05-27-2015, 02:37 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by John G View Post
              Hi Tom,

              No. If we accept the 10 minute estimate then it means she went outside around 12:45. If she heard the measured tread of a police officer just before that, as she claimed, then that means PC Smith passed around 12:45. If she was outside for more than 10 minutes then why didn't she see the following: Schwartz, Pipeman, BS man, Lave, Eagle, Letchford? And, if PC Smith did pass at 12:45 that seriously undermines Schwartz.
              You're accepting too much too easily. The entire Schwartz episode took two minutes or less and Leon Goldstein passed through just before one, so if we take Mortimer's estimate of 10 minutes literally (which we probably shouldn't), then I'm bucking for 12:47 to 12:57. Maybe have been later. The 'measured beat of a policeman' may not have been Smith at all. It may have been BS Man or Schwartz or someone completely different.

              Keep in mind she was next door to the club and they were singing, so this noise might have drown out certain sounds such as footfalls that were not 'measured' or from soles that were not hard. It also apparently drown out her hearing BS Man's cry of 'Lipski', assuming such a cry occurred.

              Yours truly,

              Tom Wescott

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                You're accepting too much too easily. The entire Schwartz episode took two minutes or less and Leon Goldstein passed through just before one, so if we take Mortimer's estimate of 10 minutes literally (which we probably shouldn't), then I'm bucking for 12:47 to 12:57. Maybe have been later. The 'measured beat of a policeman' may not have been Smith at all. It may have been BS Man or Schwartz or someone completely different.

                Keep in mind she was next door to the club and they were singing, so this noise might have drown out certain sounds such as footfalls that were not 'measured' or from soles that were not hard. It also apparently drown out her hearing BS Man's cry of 'Lipski', assuming such a cry occurred.

                Yours truly,

                Tom Wescott
                Hello Tom,

                Yes, possibly. However, as I've noted before there are numerous problems with Schwartz's evidence: the cachous; lack of abrasions; nobody hearing the screams-including Mrs D, who was probably sat a few feet away, in the kitchen, with the window open; nobody else witnessing the incident; Pipeman's failure to come forward; Schwartz eagerness to report the matter to the police, in stark contrast to Lawende et al; and in stark contrast to his own failure that night to report the assault; major contradictions between the police report and the newspaper report; BS man trying to pull Stride into the street, I.e away from the Yard where the body was found; no damage to Stride's clothing.

                Louis D, I believe, stated that the first police officer arrived about 7 minutes after he discovered the body. That would be PC Lamb's arrival at about 1:05. That suggests Louis D discovered the body at about 12:58. Mortimer said she'd been inside for about 4 minutes when she heard the pony and cart. That means that it's feasible that she was outside between, say, 12:45 and 12:54.
                Last edited by John G; 05-27-2015, 02:55 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by John G View Post
                  Hello Tom,

                  Yes, possibly. However, as I've noted before there are numerous problems with Schwartz's evidence: the cachous, lack of abrasions, nobody hearing the screams, nobody else witnessing the incident, Pipeman's failure to come forward, Schwartz eagerness to report the matter to the police, on stark contrast to Lawende et al etc.
                  These aren't problems with Schwartz's evidence, since he made no statement relating to cachous or abrasions or the ability of anyone else to hear or see what he saw. What you listed were issues that you, personally, have been unable to make sense of. That hardly has any bearing on Schwartz. In fact, all the things you listed are perfectly explainable and do not contradict Schwartz.

                  Originally posted by John G
                  Louis D I believe stated that the first police officer arrived about 7 minutes after he discovered the body. That would be PC Lamb's arrival at about 1:05. That suggests Louis D discovered the body at about 12:58. Mortimer said she'd been inside for about 4 minutes when she heard the pony and cart. That means that it's feasible that she was outside between, say, 12:45 and 12:54.
                  What you mean is that you - personally - want her outside during that time so you can say Schwartz wasn't there.

                  Yours truly,

                  Tom Wescott

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                    These aren't problems with Schwartz's evidence, since he made no statement relating to cachous or abrasions or the ability of anyone else to hear or see what he saw. What you listed were issues that you, personally, have been unable to make sense of. That hardly has any bearing on Schwartz. In fact, all the things you listed are perfectly explainable and do not contradict Schwartz.



                    What you mean is that you - personally - want her outside during that time so you can say Schwartz wasn't there.

                    Yours truly,

                    Tom Wescott
                    Hello Tom,

                    Yes, it would be useful if Mortimer was outside at the time Schwartz said he witnessed the assault! However, although I accept that there are explanations for the problems I've highlighted in Schwartz's evidence, for me there are too many red flags. I also think that it makes more sense that PC Smith was on Berner Street at around 12:45, or just before. I believe that is suggested by Mortmer's evidence and by a possible 10 minute error in the time he estimated he returned to Berner Street and discovered the commotion in Dutfield's Yard. And, if that's correct, then Schwartz's evidence is further undermined.

                    Regarding Mortimer being outside between 12:47-12:57. That means Louis arrived at about 1:01, based upon Mortimer's statement that she heard the pony and cart about 4 minutes after she went inside. I consider this to be unlikely as PC Lamb arrived on the scene just 4 minutes later.
                    Last edited by John G; 05-27-2015, 03:08 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by John G View Post
                      Hello Tom,

                      Yes, it would be useful if Mortimer was outside at the time Schwartz said he witnessed the assault! However, although I accept that there are explanations for the problems I've highlighted in Schwartz's evidence, for me there are too many red flags. I also think that it makes more sense that PC Smith was on Berner Street at around 12:45, or just before. I believe that is suggested by Mortmer's evidence and by a possible 10 minute error in the time he estimated he returned to Berner Street and discovered the commotion in Dutfield's Yard. And, if that's correct, then Schwartz's evidence is further undermined.

                      Regarding Mortimer being outside between 12:47-12:57. That means Louis arrived at about 1:01, based upon Mortimer's statement that she heard the pony and cart about 4 minutes after she went inside. I consider this to be unlikely as PC Lamb arrived on the scene just 4 minutes later.
                      These specific times you keep mentioning don't really mean anything. In fact, it seems you're putting far more weight on these times than the witnesses or the police themselves did. Are you aware that Mortimer heard the 'measured footbeats' walk by her house minutes prior to going to her doorway?

                      Yours truly,

                      Tom Wescott

                      Comment


                      • As for PC Smith's man, I believe the name of this individual appears in an article published a year or so ago (relatively recently) by our own Lynn Cates.

                        Yours truly,

                        Tom Wescott

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by John G
                          However, although I accept that there are explanations for the problems I've highlighted in Schwartz's evidence, for me there are too many red flags.
                          This confuses me. The items you mentioned have no bearing on Schwartz and, as you say, have simple and plausible explanations. That being the case, I don't see what these 'red flags' are? But let's just say there are legitimate red flags about Schwartz (there are, as there are with most witnesses), what does that mean to you? What was Schwartz's motivation?

                          Yours truly,

                          Tom Wescott

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                            so lets see.
                            Instead of the man seen attacking Stride we have Pipeman, man lurking in shadows, Eagle, Kidney (?!?), pseudo club conspiracy--am I missing someone? Oh yes-Second Man.

                            The simple fact is that the prime suspect in her death, must be BS man. Im not saying its impossible that any of these other characters could have done it. Sure its not against the law of physics-but come on lets be reasonable here.
                            Hello Abby,

                            But yet Swanson mentioned the possibility of a man other than the B.S. man being her killer so just how far fetched can the idea be if the police were willing to acknowledge the possibility?

                            c.d.
                            Last edited by c.d.; 05-27-2015, 04:16 PM. Reason: typo

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                              This confuses me. The items you mentioned have no bearing on Schwartz and, as you say, have simple and plausible explanations. That being the case, I don't see what these 'red flags' are? But let's just say there are legitimate red flags about Schwartz (there are, as there are with most witnesses), what does that mean to you? What was Schwartz's motivation?

                              Yours truly,

                              Tom Wescott
                              Most of the red flags are associated with the B.S. man being her killer not with Schwartz himself. Schwartz never said that he saw the B.S man kill Stride, he only said that he saw the B.S. man throw Liz to the ground. That is what it seems is causing the confusion.

                              c.d.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                                Hello Abby,

                                But yet Swanson mentioned the possibility of a man other than the B.S. man being her killer so just how far fetched can the idea be if the police were willing to acknowledge the possibility?

                                c.d.
                                Ok. One iota more for second man.
                                But no more.
                                "Is all that we see or seem
                                but a dream within a dream?"

                                -Edgar Allan Poe


                                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                                -Frederick G. Abberline

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