A Killer Other Than the B.S. Man?

[John G]

Hello John

Don't see Eagle moving Stride on from the club. After all, she was a working girl and international...

Best wishes
C4

Hello C4,

Yes, it's probably more likely that she would have thrown Eagle on to the footway!

[Jon Guy]

Well, it would certainly explain a few anomalies in Schwartz's evidence!

Schwartz was the killer, John

Schwartz = Astrakhan Man

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi JohnG, I'm afraid you're rather off base on all your conclusions. Or perhaps you're taking the piss out of Lynn, I don't know. Stride stuck the newspaper (Star from Sept. 28th) into her bonnet so it would fit better. The cachous was pulled by Stride from her pocket after Schwartz moved on (probably in the course of a robbery) and the blood was transferred from her neck to her wrist by Johnson when he first opened her collar and felt for a pulse and then felt for a pulse on her wrist. These are the explanations most consistent with the evidence.

As for Schwartz, as I've detailed in length elsewhere, he was most likely living at the Berner Street club up until that day and would therefore have associates at the club, such as Wess. It's not impossible he created the BS man/Pipeman story to protect the club, but it's equally as possible that he saw what he said he saw. The police found no evidence (to our knowledge) that Schwartz had concocted the story, so I'm tempted to accept his story as legitimate.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[John G]

Schwartz was the killer, John

Schwartz = Astrakhan Man

Hello Jon,

Strangely enough I hadn't thought of that. It's certainly a novel proposition!

[John G]

Hi JohnG, I'm afraid you're rather off base on all your conclusions. Or perhaps you're taking the piss out of Lynn, I don't know. Stride stuck the newspaper (Star from Sept. 28th) into her bonnet so it would fit better. The cachous was pulled by Stride from her pocket after Schwartz moved on (probably in the course of a robbery) and the blood was transferred from her neck to her wrist by Johnson when he first opened her collar and felt for a pulse and then felt for a pulse on her wrist. These are the explanations most consistent with the evidence.

As for Schwartz, as I've detailed in length elsewhere, he was most likely living at the Berner Street club up until that day and would therefore have associates at the club, such as Wess. It's not impossible he created the BS man/Pipeman story to protect the club, but it's equally as possible that he saw what he said he saw. The police found no evidence (to our knowledge) that Schwartz had concocted the story, so I'm tempted to accept his story as legitimate.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

If PC Smith's man simply provided Stride with a newspaper, and had no involvement in her murder, I don't see any reason he wouldn't have come forward. I also consider it relevant that PC Smith mentioned Stride wearing a flower whereas Schwartz didn't. And then there's the lack of injuries, i.e. grazing or bruising, which I would have expected as a consequence of the assault by BS man, I.e impact injuries as a result of being thrown to the ground, as well as other difficulties with Schwartz's evidence that I outlined in my earlier post (162). However, I have speculated before that Stride may have been stalked by someone she met earlier in the evening, i.e. Marshall's suspect who, of course, also failed to come forward for elimination purposes.

It is therefore possible that the killer witnessed the assault by BS man and then arrived on the scene, offering consolation to Stride, and maybe even giving her the cachous. In fact, despite all of the difficulties with Schwartz's evidence, I have to acknowledge that he does seem to have a legitimate reason to have been on Berner Street at that time. But, as I've also noted before, Packer had a legitimate reason for selling grapes but I don't think he sold any to JtR.

[Harry D]

Hello Jon,

Strangely enough I hadn't thought of that. It's certainly a novel proposition!

Followed up by a piece of anti-semitic graffiti to further throw off the police.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom,

If PC Smith's man simply provided Stride with a newspaper, and had no involvement in her murder, I don't see any reason he wouldn't have come forward. I also consider it relevant that PC Smith mentioned Stride wearing a flower whereas Schwartz didn't. And then there's the lack of injuries, i.e. grazing or bruising, which I would have expected as a consequence of the assault by BS man, I.e impact injuries as a consequence of being thrown to the ground. However, I have speculated before that Stride may have been stalked by someone she met earlier in the evening, i.e. Marshall's suspect who, of course, also failed to come forward for elimination purposes.

It is therefore possible that the killer witnessed the assault by BS man and then arrived on the scene, offering consolation to Stride, and maybe even giving her the cachous.

Hi John, virtually anything is possible, but to what degree? If BS Man were stalking Stride he was doing a poor job of it because she'd been seen with numerous men and he was on Commercial Street while she was hanging out in the club yard. Based on what Schwartz saw, BS Man was either turning into the club yard when he bumped into Stride or she spoke out to him as he was passing and he stopped. These two possibilities have a higher degree of likelihood than that she was being systematically stalked.

As for bruising, I assume you're aware she was bruised on her shoulders and chest. I wouldn't have expected to see much else. We talk of this 'assault' by BS Man, but all we know that he did was give Stride a push. She had a deformed leg, so it may not have taken much of a push to get her to the ground, and it may not have been his intention to push her to the ground. Such a fall might skin your hand, or elbow, or knee, or it may not have. My point is that the lack of such an injury does not mean a fall didn't happen. There is no evidence we know of that would allow us to conclude Schwartz was lying or mistaken, although he may have been. That's true with most witnesses.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Abby Normal]

See post 162. He estimated 12:30 to 12:35. This seems to have been based on his estimate that his beat took 25 to 30 minutes to complete, and a belief that he arrived back on Berner Street at 1:00am. This was clearly an error, as evidenced by the timings of PC Lamb and Edward Johnston.

oops sorry. I meant to say 12:30

[curious4]

Hi JohnG, I'm afraid you're rather off base on all your conclusions. Or perhaps you're taking the piss out of Lynn, I don't know. Stride stuck the newspaper (Star from Sept. 28th) into her bonnet so it would fit better. The cachous was pulled by Stride from her pocket after Schwartz moved on (probably in the course of a robbery) and the blood was transferred from her neck to her wrist by Johnson when he first opened her collar and felt for a pulse and then felt for a pulse on her wrist. These are the explanations most consistent with the evidence.

As for Schwartz, as I've detailed in length elsewhere, he was most likely living at the Berner Street club up until that day and would therefore have associates at the club, such as Wess. It's not impossible he created the BS man/Pipeman story to protect the club, but it's equally as possible that he saw what he said he saw. The police found no evidence (to our knowledge) that Schwartz had concocted the story, so I'm tempted to accept his story as legitimate.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

If Schwarz was living at the club, why did he pass through Berner street to check whether his wife had managed to move house in his absence? They were living in Berner street. Definitely not living at the club.

All these "suspects" Eagle etc, were surprisingly young, early 20s. Not at all the 28 to 35 age group described by witnesses.

Also Mrs D was probably pregnant, Diemschutz said she was "delicate" I think he meant in a delicate situation. She wasn't quite so delicate a couple of years later when she ws belabouring a policeman "with a soft broom" in defence of her husband!

Best wishes
C4

[John G]

Hi John, virtually anything is possible, but to what degree? If BS Man were stalking Stride he was doing a poor job of it because she'd been seen with numerous men and he was on Commercial Street while she was hanging out in the club yard. Based on what Schwartz saw, BS Man was either turning into the club yard when he bumped into Stride or she spoke out to him as he was passing and he stopped. These two possibilities have a higher degree of likelihood than that she was being systematically stalked.

As for bruising, I assume you're aware she was bruised on her shoulders and chest. I wouldn't have expected to see much else. We talk of this 'assault' by BS Man, but all we know that he did was give Stride a push. She had a deformed leg, so it may not have taken much of a push to get her to the ground, and it may not have been his intention to push her to the ground. Such a fall might skin your hand, or elbow, or knee, or it may not have. My point is that the lack of such an injury does not mean a fall didn't happen. There is no evidence we know of that would allow us to conclude Schwartz was lying or mistaken, although he may have been. That's true with most witnesses.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

Dr Phillips addresses the issue of the shoulder "bruises" at the inquest: "They were what we call pressure marks. At first they were very obscure...They were not what are ordinarily called bruises, neither is there any abrasion." He also stated that it was "difficult to say" how recently the marks might have been caused.

I would agree that Stride falling to the ground, in Schwartz's account, could have been an accident. He describes BS man trying to pull her into the street, suggesting that she was resisting. In such circumstances, she may have simply lost her balance: this is further evidence that BS man wasn't her killer- if he wanted to murder her in Dutfield's Yard, why was he pulling her towards the street, I.e in the opposite direction? And surely he didn't think that murdering Stride in the middle of the street, in front of two witnesses, was a good idea.

Regarding Stride being stalked. I think it possible that she could have been killed by Marshall's suspect, PC Smith's suspect or even Brown's suspect, who all failed to come forward, assuming they weren't the same man. If so, maybe he'd been trying to get her to go with him to a pre-planned location. When she refused, he decided to follow her and wait for a possible opportunity. After witnessing the assault by BS man he arrives on the scene, consoles Stride, and persuades her to go with him into the darkness of Dutfield's Yard. This could be for purposes of solicitation, but maybe he just offered to buy her a drink in the club, which could be accessed by the side door.

However, it's also possible that she was killed by PC Smith's suspect and that BS man didn't exit. I do feel the evidence points to Smith being on Berner Street closer to 12:45, than say 12:35. And, out of all of the witnesses, he alone correctly identified the flower.

[John G]

oops sorry. I meant to say 12:30

Hi Abby,

Don't worry, I realised the mistake!

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom,

If Schwarz was living at the club, why did he pass through Berner street to check whether his wife had managed to move house in his absence? They were living in Berner street. Definitely not living at the club.

The club is on Berner Street, so it stands to reason that if he was checking for his wife at his old residence, and that residence was the club, it would be on Berner Street. To my knowledge, 40 Berner Street was the only place on the street that systematically took in foreign Jews while they got on their feet.

All these "suspects" Eagle etc, were surprisingly young, early 20s. Not at all the 28 to 35 age group described by witnesses.

I don't think you're following too closely. I'm not suggesting Morris Eagle was a Ripper suspect. He wasn't and isn't and shouldn't be. I'm suggesting the possibility that he was BS Man and was moving Stride out of the way because he didn't want a prostitute soliciting there. The timing of his arrival back at the club and his entrance through the yard makes that a possibility.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[curious4]

Hello Tom

Schwarz "fled to his new lodgings" after being chased by pipeman. He didn't call in at the club on the way. Therefore he must have passed his old lodgings on the way and seen that his wife had moved.

Wasn't saying you in particular had accused anyone, just that the names had come up in the discussion.

Best wishes
C4

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom

Schwarz "fled to his new lodgings" after being chased by pipeman. He didn't call in at the club on the way. Therefore he must have passed his old lodgings on the way and seen that his wife had moved.

Wasn't saying you in particular had accused anyone, just that the names had come up in the discussion.

Best wishes
C4

He didn't check in on any residence between Commercial and 40 Berner Street, so that rules that part of the street out has having been their prior lodgings. We can rule out the entirety of the other side of the street because it was all businesses (and because he wasn't walking on that side). He slowed to a stop behind the couple at the gates of the club and only crossed because of their struggles. When he got to the other side of the street he stopped and turned around. He didn't head on to any other location on the street. Had his prior location (which he apparently still had access to, with a locking door) been on Berner Street ahead of him, I imagine he would have run to that. All of this plus other information points to Berner Street as having been his residence up until that very day. This connection to the club might be why the police were hesitant to accept his evidence at first. '

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[John G]

Regarding PC Smith's timings. If, as I've suggested, he arrived on Berner Street around 12:45, rather than 12:30-12:35, then Mortimer's evidence clearly makes much more sense. Thus, she said she went to her doorstep after hearing the measured tread of a PC, presumably Smith. However, if we accept PC Smith's time estimate, she should have seen Charles Letchford, Morris Eagle and Joseph Lave, but she didn't see any of those people and they didn't see her.

Moreover, she said she remained outside for about 10 minutes, before hearing a pony and cart passing about 4 minutes later. However, based on the earlier time estimates, this means she was outside between 12:30-40 or 12:35-45, with Louis D arriving between 12:44 and 12:49, which doesn't make any sense.

However, if PC Smith saw Stride and the newspaper parcel suspect at around 12:45, then the killer could have waited until Smith had left Berner Street before inveigling Stride into Dutfield's Yard. We can then speculate that he was interrupted by Mortimer. If he was JtR, then he may well have flead after Mortimer went inside , deciding it was too risky to remain in the Yard, I.e to effect the mutilations, especially considering the presence of the club.