A Killer Other Than the B.S. Man?

[John G]

But what about Eddowes? She was practically killed in pitch black darkness, and was killed within a small time frame, I'm aware of the approximation of the timing of body found etc, but you see what I mean.

Yes, I suppose it's difficult to determine whether Mitre Square was quite as dark as Dutfield's Yard. Of course, there is a reasonable chance that Stride's killer was interrupted, I.e by Louis D or even Lave.

[Natasha]

Yes, I suppose it's difficult to determine whether Mitre Square was quite as dark as Dutfield's Yard. Of course, there is a reasonable chance that Stride's killer was interrupted, I.e by Louis D or even Lave.

I think all the murders committed were in risky locations.
In the case of Chapman, he was in a position where he could have been caught. Surely the killer would have heard someone (Albert Cadosch) going into the other yard, and what is strange, is that he chose to kill her within earshot of him.

[pinkmoon]

The murders were in risky places but it is quite possible that people who were about at that time and could be potential witnesses were themselves up to no good for example could pipe man be a punter simply trying to seek out a prostitute who decides not to get involved and clears of before the police arrive and start asking awkward questions .

[John G]

Hi Natasha,

Yes, I agree, although I do think the killer(s) took basic precautions . For instance, Mitre Square and Berner Street were both very dark. Nichols was probably killed at a time when there was little light and when very few people were about. Strangely enough, I think Hanbury Street was probably the riskiest, as the murder was probably committed in daylight at a time when many locals were preparing to leave for work.

However, if the killer was able to work quickly he probably felt they were calculated risks worth taking. Of course, today he would be regarded as a disorganized killer. However 1888 was different. The killer would be highly unlikely to have a vehicle he could use for abduction purposes and any accommodation he had would probably be multi-occupancy and overcrowded. His options, therefore, would be much more limited than a modern serial killer, although clearly there were more organized killers of this period: The Torso Killer used dump sites and he must have had a secure location where he took his victims.

[John G]

The murders were in risky places but it is quite possible that people who were about at that time and could be potential witnesses were themselves up to no good for example could pipe man be a punter simply trying to seek out a prostitute who decides not to get involved and clears of before the police arrive and start asking awkward questions .

Yes, what is surprising is how many possible witnesses failed to come forward. For instance, in the case of Stride, in addition to Pipeman other suspects, who may not have been the killer, failed to come forward for elimination purposes. For instance, Best and Gardner, PC Smith, Brown and Marshall, as well as Schwartz, of course, all claim to have seen Stride with a suspect. Assuming they were not all the same man, or that some cases could have been a case of mistaken identity, no innocent person came forward.

[lynn cates]

proposal

Hello John. Thanks.

I cannot help but wonder whether your proposal--had it been adopted--would have been quickly dismissed as disingenuous?

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

I cannot help but wonder whether your proposal--had it been adopted--would have been quickly dismissed as disingenuous?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I just wonder how clever Eagle was. In many ways Tom's theory makes perfect sense: Eagle returns to the club and notices Stride stood in the gateway. He assumes she's soliciting, or at least her presence is undesirable, so he tries to move her on. The biggest difficulty with the scenario is that Lave appears to have exited the club after Eagle's return. However, he could have been the one that interrupted the killer; or Stride did move on initially, only to return with her killer shortly afterwards.

So, what does Eagle do upon realising that Schwartz witnessed the assault? Well, perhaps he notes that Schwartz is the nervous type, as well as being an immigrant who can't speak English. He decides that he might be amenable to pressure or/and financial inducement. He therefore visits Schwartz and assures him that he wasn't the killer. He then persuades/pressurises him to immediately come forward, but with a false description.

Why would he do this? Well, as soon as Schwartz gives false testimony he's effectively crossed the Rubicon. I mean, he can hardly go back afterwards and say to the police, "I'm really sorry, but I made up the story about BS man, it was really Eagle that I saw!"

No, he would have been cleverly drawn into a conspiracy, and any attempt to change his story would risk possible charges, i.e. attempting to pervert the course of justice. Not to mention the fact that, if he does subsequently change his account, his credibility, like that of Packer, would be seriously undermined.

A possible difficulty with the scenario is the fact that Schwartz mentions Stride stood in the club gateway, and this fact might draw unwelcome intention to Eagle returning to the club via the gateway and, of course, Lave walking as far as the street.

However, by adjusting the time to 12:45 he effectively provides both men with an alibi. And Eagle may have been concerned about Pipeman: should he come forward and contradict Schwartz's account, i.e by confirming that an altercation took place by the gates, then the police might have reason to become suspicious.

[John G]

Further to my previous post, I've been wondering about BS man shouting Lipski. If Eagle and Schwartz were conspiring perhaps they both realised that, if they didn't kill Stride, Pipeman probably did. This effects Schwartz's conscience so he only agrees to come forward on the understanding that his account also implicates Pipeman, hence the part of the story where BS man shouts "Lipski" at the confederate. Unfortunately, the police don't get the message, reasoning instead that the warning was probably directed towards Schwartz. Therefore, in the newspaper version Schwartz further, and more definitely, implicates Pipeman by having him rush toward him with a knife.

[lynn cates]

Eygle

Hello John. Thanks.

Yes, I rather like the theory too. But I think it needs an explanation of the murder.

Perhaps a temper flare up?

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello Lynn,

I somehow don't see Eagle as Stride's killer, although it's perfectly possible that he was BS man. I mean, why would he murder someone after involvement in a fairly minor altercation? And is this something he would do outside his own club?

Pipeman is more viable. And, of course, it's possible that he was the man, or one of the men, seen in Stride's company by other witnesses, and could possibly have been stalking her after being rejected in some way. In this respect James Brown's evidence is interesting: "No, not tonight, some other night."

[lynn cates]

P M

Hello John. Thanks.

OK. But why is PM more viable? He looks like a bloke, standing near a closed pub, taking a smoke.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello Lynn,

I agree. Even Pipeman seems like a weak candidate. And, of course, Schwartz refers to him moving away from the incident, to the extent that he believed the man was following him. It's possible that he was just making sure that Schwartz wasn't going for help, but that seems a bit of stretch. Nonetheless, there isn't any reliable evidence that Pipeman was discovered by the police, and it's therefore odd that he didn't come forward, assuming he had nothing to hide.

Regarding Eagle, he must surely have realized that Schwartz was probably a local man who may have recognized him. Even if he didn't there must have been a very good chance that they would encounter each other again; in fact, I would have thought it virtually inevitable. In such circumstances, he would have to be crazy to murder Stride, as there was clearly a high risk that Schwartz would subsequently identify him. In contrast, the relatively minor altercation that Schwartz witnessed probably wouldn't have caused him too much trouble: if the incident was reported he could simply explain that he was merely moving Stride on, I.e away from the club, and that she must have lost her balance as she resisted. Of course, if the police accepted she was soliciting they may have regarded the incident as a occupational hazard for someone in her profession, as might Stride.

However, PC Smith's often overlooked suspect is interesting, assuming he wasn't Pipeman. Eagle probably returned to the club about 5 minutes after Smith's sighting, which suggests to me that the suspect might still be in the locality. I wonder if the parcel he was carrying contained a new pipe!

[pinkmoon]

For someone who if he is telling the truth actually saw jtr in action seems to be ignored by the police could they have deliberately have not made a fuss to use Schwartz as a witness later or could they have dismissed him as a time waster strange to say the least.

[Rosella]

I do think it's pretty extraordinary that Nichols, Stride and Eddowes at least were killed in almost complete darkness and that in two of those murders there were mutilations. What's the explanation? Did Jack eat huge numbers of carrots? I know we today are spoiled with electric light but was the night vision of Victorians so much better?

[John G]

Hi Rosella,

I think what links those locations is that they were reasonably secluded, i.e because of the poor light. What intrigues me is determining whether JtR was a organized or disorganized serial killer. Today I'm sure he'd be regarded as disorganized. However, as I've noted in other posts, as a nineteenth century serial killer his options would be much more limited. For instance, he's probably unlikely to have had access to transport and any accommodation he had was probably multi occupancy and therefore very risky. Of course, the same was true of his victims.