The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[John G]

Would this be the same Swanson who seemed convinced that Kosminski was JtR, based upon Lawende's identification? Mind you, at least he had the sense not to use Schwartz!

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

What's your opinion of the discrepancies between the police report and the press account?

Hi John.
Unlike with Hutchinson, we do not have a copy of Schwartz's police statement. What we have is a summary given by Swanson.
We have a thread on Casebook where much disagreement was voiced on what Swanson meant by "opposite", ie; opposite Dutfields Yard, or opposite Schwartz (depending at what point in crossing Berner St. Schwartz was at).
So, we rely on Swanson's summary, however efficient or deficient it may turn out to be.

For example, in the newspaper article the second man is effectively described as an accomplice, rather than a bystander, who shouts out a warning to BS man, and then rushes forward towards Schwartz, carrying a knife. The Star also says that the attacker pushed Stride into the passage, whereas the police report says he threw her to the pavement outside the gates. Neither can this be explained away as a language problem, as Schwartz brought an interpreter with him.

I'm inclined to go with Swanson's version. I cannot see him making mistakes that change an accomplice into bystander. Any deficiencies that may exist with what Swanson wrote I would limit to omissions, not misinterpretations.
He was after all, merely summarizing the story for his superiors.
Also, I suspect the change from Pipeman (Swanson) to Knifeman (Star), is journalistic embellishment.

It seems to me that there were fewer significant discrepancies in Hutchinson's evidence, i.e. between the press report and police report, and yet on the Hutchinson threads a number of posters seem to regard that as evidence that he lied.

Yes, but no-one has written a book suggesting that Schwartz was Jack the Ripper either So the need to paint Schwartz as a liar is not so necessary at the moment, but it may be evolving.

And of course, Sugden points out there were over 40 points of similarity in the respective Hutchinson accounts. Clearly not the case with Schwartz's accounts.

Absolutely, and it isn't just that the points made were the same, Hutchinson in most cases used the same wording to both the police and the press. There are small differences though nothing of significance that wouldn't be expected when someone tells the same story twice.

[Batman]

Would this be the same Swanson who seemed convinced that Kosminski was JtR, based upon Lawende's identification? Mind you, at least he had the sense not to use Schwartz!

It is common mistake to believe Swanson made such a claim. Swanson simply noted the person Anderson alluded too was Kozminski. That's all. Nothing about JtR and certainly nothing on his conviction over that point.

[Wyatt Earp]

The difficulty is that Stride's killer was clearly very calculating and very audacious. Does that really sound like an "idiot" or drunken fool such as BS man?

John, many serial killers have been under the influence when they committed their crimes. There is no “difficulty” here at all.

A Ripper who was particularly liquored up on the night of the double event would help to explain the recklessness on Berner Street, the perceived lack of skill in Mitre Square, and some very risky behavior involving an apron and a piece of chalk.

BS man had just assaulted her. Surely she would be more inclined to scream "murder" or at least attempt to flee, particularly when you consider the JtR scare.

That’s not a conclusion that you can draw from Schwartz’s statement. The “not very loudly” suggests that Stride was protesting her treatment and not screaming bloody murder. Don’t forget, this was a rough part of town and there were a lot of rough characters in it. It’s possible that BSM’s behavior was not the big deal to her that it is to you.

Prostitution continued to take place in the East End throughout the Ripper’s reign of terror—women continued to go with men into dark and secluded places and they continued to put themselves into dangerous situations. Each of the victims misjudged her assailant. It’s possible that Stride had this guy pegged as just another obnoxious drunk. If she had been involved in a previous business relationship with him from which she had emerged unscathed, that could also have been a factor in her misjudging him. I think it’s quite possible that carrot and/or stick could have gained her cooperation.

OK, and presumably she has cachous in hand at this time?

Lynn, if BSM gave the cachous to Stride, I think he must have done so at some point after she had picked herself up following their initial disagreement.

[Batman]

Lawende was asked to identify Sadler not because he had the best look at the killer but because Sadler was a sailor, something Lawende had noted about the suspect he saw with Eddowes.

[lynn cates]

quote

Hello Batman.

"Yes, which is why Lynn's certainty of...
1. Liz COULD NOT have held the cachous IF she were thrown to the ground.
...isn't the impossible, but happens, often enough for the experts who deal with this on a day to day basis to take note of it."

The doctors, you mean.

You should know--you quoted it.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

detective

Hello Abby.

"The man who was seen attacking the woman minutes before her dead body was found nearby could not have possibly been her attacker because she was found holding breath mints in her hand."

This is PRECISELY what a real detective would conclude--PROVIDED he engaged in REAL research and forensic reconstruction.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

ins and outs

Hello (again) Abby.

"She was running to get away from him, toward the closest source of help-the voices of the men from the club."

Then why was she headed OUT of the yard?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

A star is born

Hello (yet again) Abby.

"Nothing at all on Schwartz."

Indeed? Then I suggest you read the account in "The Star."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

after

Hello Jason. Thanks.

That was AFTER the police interview.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

B S M

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"The incidentals of where he stood make no difference in my estimate."

Makes ALL the difference in mine.

"The killer did strike her from her right side while she looked away . . ."

Agreed.

". . . perhaps he turned her around to check her clothing was not soiled, then he strikes."

Very well. But surely she has cachous in hand already. For one does not look away IF being handed something.

"But, regardless, this must be when she took out, or was given the cachous."

Given your scenario, the former, surely.

"No, the two men passing were likely just a fortunate distraction that he could use to his advantage, providing he stayed in the shadows."

Yet, the evening was planned around Stride's death?

"In past years my rejection of Stride being a Ripper murder was based on the common belief that her killer was BS-man."

Sensible.

"If there is sufficient time for another man to come on the scene . . ."

Swanson says that. However, that depends on Liz dying near 1.00--NOT 12.45.

". . . and this was her killer, then I'm not so sure anymore about excluding her."

John is QUITE right that, IF one wishes to buy into the "ripper," one is better advised to jettison the nonsense about BSM.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

accuracy

Hello Batman.

"Did you forget about the fact Swanson followed through by saying they have no reason to doubt the story?"

He said no such thing. He said:

"If Schwartz is to be believed, and the police report of his statement casts no doubt upon it . . ."

Accuracy, lad!

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

odd

Hello Wyatt. Thanks.

"Lynn, if BSM gave the cachous to Stride, I think he must have done so at some point after she had picked herself up following their initial disagreement."

Very well. But isn't such an offering directly after an assault a bit odd?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Oy givault.

Hello Batman.

"Lawende was asked to identify Sadler not because he had the best look at the killer but because Sadler was a sailor, something Lawende had noted about the suspect he saw with Eddowes."

Oh, dear! What kind of reasoning is this?

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Hello Batman.

"Lawende was asked to identify Sadler not because he had the best look at the killer but because Sadler was a sailor, something Lawende had noted about the suspect he saw with Eddowes."

Oh, dear! What kind of reasoning is this?

Cheers.
LC

One that doesn't have met police pilfering city police witnesses maybe?