How easy was it to disappear?

[Rosella]

I've just been reading about a well known 23 year old cold case here in Victoria which has featured an arrest this week.

I have a book on the case and some of the witnesses had variations (naturally enough, I suppose) of between 15 minutes to half an hour in their statements of what was seen and not seen. If people with wrist watches and access to modern technology can't come up with accurate times, what hope was there for witnesses in the 1880's?

If you factor in lodging houses that gave access to dark passages and staircases to passers by, alleyways located everywhere that were as black as the ace of spades, and conversely, streets that were sometimes extremely noisy and busy, there wouldn't be any problem in Jack disappearing afterwards.He could just disappear into the crowd.

Especially remember that men who worked in abbatoirs and horse slaughterers often walked back home from work with blood on their clothing. What's the old saying about hiding something in an obvious place?

[Jon Guy]

Hello YS

Have a read of these contemporary accounts of walking around Whitechapel.
Taken from the Casebook Victorian London menu:

http://www.casebook.org/victorian_london/autumnev.html

http://www.casebook.org/victorian_london/whitechapel3.html

http://www.casebook.org/victorian_london/whitesat.html

[Batman]

There is this story I read, I think, Pinkerton's detective agency, but could be wrong, did a demonstration and cordoned off a small street area with the intention of creating a non-public vacuum. Within a few minutes people appeared having taken passages not noticed or monitored by detectives. Whitechapel's environmental setting allowed for the use of special pathways to those experienced enough with them.

[John G]

There is this story I read, I think, Pinkerton's detective agency, but could be wrong, did a demonstration and cordoned off a small street area with the intention of creating a non-public vacuum. Within a few minutes people appeared having taken passages not noticed or monitored by detectives. Whitechapel's environmental setting allowed for the use of special pathways to those experienced enough with them.

That's a good point. Chief Inspector Moore is quoted as saying that at one murder scene the police attempted to seal off the area by forming a circle, guarding what they believed was every entrance and approach. However, within a few minutes 50 people had breached the cordon, via two passageways the police didn't even know existed.

[jason_c]

I think the fact he did disappear a few times shows it must have been relatively easy at that time of night. The best witness statements we have come from sightings before a murder or during a murder not after a murder.

[The Cenci]

A lot of this is based on the certainty that he killed Stride - something I'm not 100% on.

If he did his getaway in either direction had advantages. If he went down Fairclough St he would no longer be on the same road as the murder and had he walked back up to Commercial Road and back in with the throng and hiding in plain sight.

If he did head that way towards Mitre Square he would pass the entrance to Gunthorpe St. That struck me as odd when I made the same journey last month.

I'd say the Chapman killing was the riskiest, being in daylight. Whitechapel wasn't on its guard for the Nicholls murder and he took his time with Kelly.

I've always thought he wore a long coat or even a cape to hide the blood.

[Batman]

I think one can rule out suspects with blood on them. JtR was very forensically aware, especially of blood. I doubt he got a drop on him.

Yes the Moore experiment meant what we see on the maps is not fully accurate at all. People must have been changing the landscape due to overcrowding with passages through places like yards probably previously closed off let open due to volume of movement. Accessways such as Chapman's back yard appear a dead end but I bet a simple low fence hop might take one into a network of yards leading undoubtedly to a main public street. While we are able to see say 3-4 routes the ripper could take from Mitre Square to Goulston street, there are probably dozens more.

[YankeeSergeant]

Disappearing

Errata and GUT;
I'm talking about getting away from the crime scene notably the International Workingmen's Educational Club. To my mind, if Jack was ever going to be caught that would have been the place. As we all know that didn't happen. In the novel I have him hiding in the shadows until Deimschutz goes into the club to get help. Is this plausible given the area and the rapidity of the Eddowes murder following?

[YankeeSergeant]

Cencei,
In reality I don't know if Chapman was one of JTR's. In the novel I stay with the idea that she is. Jon thanks for the links. I'm a little more comfortable with the way I worked it out in the novel.

[YankeeSergeant]

In a way, I think he was hiding in plain sight. I think he would have been someone that no one would have given a second glance to. So, yes I could see him strolling Commercial Street, but it is becoming clear to me that Whitechapel was as one observer termed it a rabbit warren. Thanks everybody!

[John G]

Errata and GUT;
I'm talking about getting away from the crime scene notably the International Workingmen's Educational Club. To my mind, if Jack was ever going to be caught that would have been the place. As we all know that didn't happen. In the novel I have him hiding in the shadows until Deimschutz goes into the club to get help. Is this plausible given the area and the rapidity of the Eddowes murder following?

Yes, that's very plausible. It should be remembered that the Yard was cloaked in pitch black darkness. Thus, Joseph Lave went out for a smoke around 12:35, and when he returned around 5 minutes later he couldn't even see the door to get back in. And when Diemshutz originally looked down on the body he thought it was a heap of dirt. He then prodded the body with his whip, but it didn't move. He struck a match to get a closer look at the obstruction and realized it was the body of a women, who he initially thought- even under the light of a match at the front of the Yard- was his own wife!

It should also be noted that the instinct of many of the locals appears to have been against getting involved. When Diemshutz, Eagle and Kozebrodsky, upon discovery of the body, ran off down the street, in opposite directions, shouting "police" and "murder" they attracted the attention of just one member of the public: Edward Spooner. And at the inquest, the coroner asked Dr Phillips if the victim [Stride] cried out. He replied, "She was in a yard, and in a locality where she may cry out very loudly and no notice taken of her."

Stride's murder was also very audacious: The victim seems to have been taken completely by surprise, and the killer successfully cut her carotid artery, whilst avoiding arterial spray. And nobody heard or saw anything, even Mrs Diemshutz who was sat in the ground floor kitchen with the window open. She told the press: "I am positive I did not hear any screams of sound of any kind. Even the singing on the floor above would not have prevented me from hearing had there been any. In the yard itself all was as silent as the grave."

[John G]

Cencei,
In reality I don't know if Chapman was one of JTR's. In the novel I stay with the idea that she is. Jon thanks for the links. I'm a little more comfortable with the way I worked it out in the novel.

I think you're on safe ground with Chapman. I'd be genuinely amazed if there was a single poster on this site who would argue that Nichols' and Chapman weren't killed by the same person. They even have nearly identical parallel throat cuts!

[Batman]

but it is becoming clear to me that Whitechapel was as one observer termed it a rabbit warren. Thanks everybody!

Yes and to become an expert in stealth and where to go/hide one need to do no less than learn from the very victims JtR went with. Just look where Martha Tabram ended up. There is nothing to stop someone on a good diet of carrots going back over old ground in the dark. If the ladies of the night could avoid detection, then you didn't have to be Einstein to learn it either. The amateur detectives who dressed up and went out even found doorways to hide in and accidentally shock passers by.

The description of JtR outside of Hutchinson paints the picture of an 20-30 yr average looking boring short stout peaked cap moustache wearing 'throw a stone in Whitechapel on market day and hit one by accident' looking person. There were probably hundreds of people who looked like him trawling the place for whatever vice could be provided at night.

[Errata]

Errata and GUT;
I'm talking about getting away from the crime scene notably the International Workingmen's Educational Club. To my mind, if Jack was ever going to be caught that would have been the place. As we all know that didn't happen. In the novel I have him hiding in the shadows until Deimschutz goes into the club to get help. Is this plausible given the area and the rapidity of the Eddowes murder following?

It remains true that if you want to remain hidden from the eyes of a crowd, up is where you want to go. Nobody looks up. Especially when they are looking down on a body. If you look at the pictures of Berner st., all of those building have roof access. You can tell by the kind of chimneys they have. He just needed one open door. And ironically the IWEC had an open door. I mean this is fiction. In reality likely those doors were locked and he would have to kick one in to start roof walking. And roof walking i s not easy even on flat roofs. But it's not inconceivable that the door was unlocked. That roof access was not a big deal there. It was usually locked off to prevent kids from getting up there. But hypothetically he could have been standing on the roof of a building watching them process the scene. Unless he made noise, no one would be looking up.

[GUT]

Errata and GUT;
I'm talking about getting away from the crime scene notably the International Workingmen's Educational Club. To my mind, if Jack was ever going to be caught that would have been the place. As we all know that didn't happen. In the novel I have him hiding in the shadows until Deimschutz goes into the club to get help. Is this plausible given the area and the rapidity of the Eddowes murder following?

Totally plausible, it may not have been his preference but once Deimschutz disturbs him, what else does he do, he doesn't jump out and say it was me, he tries to hide [successfully] first opportunity scampers then when he spots Eddows!!!

That works in a novel.