Arrested on suspicion

[Mr Lucky]

Here’s a familiar agency telegram published on Monday 12 Nov;-

The Press Association says: The police at Commercial street Station made another arrest at three o'clock this morning, in Dorset street, at the scene of the murder. The man, who does not answer the description of the supposed murderer, was acting very suspiciously, and refused to satisfy the officers as to his recent movements. Inquiries are being made, but at eight o'clock he was still in custody.

This appears to be the same incident, in more detail

“Considerable importance is attached to a arrest which was effected at an early hour yesterday morning through the exertions of two young men living in the neighbourhood of Dorset Street. Like many others in the neighbourhood they appeared to have transformed themselves into amateur detectives, and they seem to have perambulating the streets on the look out for suspicious persons. About three o'clock yesterday morning their attention was drawn to two men in Dorset Street who were loitering about. the two men separated, and one was followed by the two youths in to Houndsditch. They carefully observed his appearance, which was that of a foreigner about 5ft. 8in. in height and having a long pointed moustache. He was dressed in a long black overcoat and deerstalker hat. When near Bishopsgate Street the young men spoke to a policeman, who at once stopped the stranger and took him to Bishopsgate Street Police Station. Here he was searched, and it was found he was carrying a sort of pocket medical chest containing several small bottles of chloroform. In rather unperfect(sic) English he explained that he lived in Pimlico, where he was well known. After this preliminary examination he was taken to Commercial Street Police Station in which district the murder was committed. He was detained on suspicion, but was subsequently was taken to Marlborough Street Police Station for the purpose of facilitating his identification, and the man is detained at commercial Street Police Station on account of his suspicious movements.”

The mans description is particularly noteworthy.

[Phil Carter]

Well it can't be Tumblety.

"Imperfect English" would hardly be describing an American from an Irish family. And it can't be Kosminski with that pointed long moustache, I note. (Not known to live in Pimlico either).
And it cannot be Druitt as it does not match his description, he spoke educated English and had no connection with Pimlico either. Just an observation.☺



Phil

[GUT]

Look at just how many were arrested on suspicion. Literally dozens and they didn't seem to have much in common.

[RockySullivan]

Thanks Lucky, especially interesting is the pimlico connection.

The second victim of the Thames series was discovered in September of 1888, in the middle of the hunt for the Whitechapel Murder. On September 11, an arm belonging to a female was discovered in the Thames off Pimlico. On September 28, another arm was found along the Lambeth-road and on October 2, the torso of a female, minus the head, was discovered.

Source: casebook torso page

[Mr Lucky]

Well it can't be Tumblety.

"Imperfect English" would hardly be describing an American from an Irish family. And it can't be Kosminski with that pointed long moustache, I note. (Not known to live in Pimlico either).
And it cannot be Druitt as it does not match his description, he spoke educated English and had no connection with Pimlico either. Just an observation.☺



Phil

That's not how it works ! If, for some reason we need Kosminski to appear in Pimlico then we can just assume he was there - after all the police 'must know something' , ect

[Mr Lucky]

Look at just how many were arrested on suspicion. Literally dozens and they didn't seem to have much in common.

Not sure about 'literally dozens' arrested on suspicion after the Kelly murder -I thought it was two or three?

[Mr Lucky]

Thanks Lucky, especially interesting is the pimlico connection.

The second victim of the Thames series was discovered in September of 1888, in the middle of the hunt for the Whitechapel Murder. On September 11, an arm belonging to a female was discovered in the Thames off Pimlico. On September 28, another arm was found along the Lambeth-road and on October 2, the torso of a female, minus the head, was discovered.

Source: casebook torso page

Hi Rocky

Do you think the same killer is involved in the torsos and the Whitechapel killings ?

Not sure how important the Pimlico connection is for you, but I think I remember a story about a woman who claimed she had been drugged by a man in Pimlico - but the magistrate through the case out, so nothing came of it.

[Mr Lucky]

The point for consideration is the description given of the man.

When Hutchinson's description of Astrakhan man was first published it was supposed to match one previously furnished, which could only be the following;-

The shabbily dressed man
The neatly dressed man with the dark moustache
Blotchy face.

None are anything like the description of astrakhan man, but what of this?;-

"They carefully observed his appearance, which was that of a foreigner about 5ft. 8in. in height and having a long pointed moustache. He was dressed in a long black overcoat and deerstalker hat."

[Wickerman]

The point for consideration is the description given of the man.

When Hutchinson's description of Astrakhan man was first published it was supposed to match one previously furnished, which could only be the following;-

The shabbily dressed man
The neatly dressed man with the dark moustache
Blotchy face.

I'm not so sure the press were referring to Blotchy.

The comment to which you refer was an Agency release in papers of the 13th, it reads the same across many newspapers:
" This description, which confirms that given by others of the person seen in company with the deceased on the morning she was killed, is much fuller in detail than that hitherto in the possession of the police."

This comment was appended to an Agency release of a Police statement. It was an edited version of what Hutchinson told the police the night before.

What we are reading is, that the above description given to the police by Hutchinson (though the author is not named), confirms a similar description given by others.

Which "others"?
Only Cox saw Blotchy, and this press release does not mention the inquest.
It may be referring to other witness descriptions in the possession of the police, not used at the inquest, and not previously published. So, "other" witness descriptions that we do not know about.

Do you recall that remark in the press concerning 53 other witness statements?
"As many as fifty-three persons have, in all, made statements as to "suspicious men," each of whom was thought to be Mary Janet Kelly's assassin."
Echo, 13 Nov. 1888.

Apparently the Echo attempted to find some of these 53 witnesses, but to no avail, it seems the police would not help them for obvious reasons.



If taken at face value, the "description given by others", reads to me like Astrachan was seen by other people not mentioned anywhere.
It certainly, as you point out, does not refer to Blotchy. The description does not resemble the man seen by Packer, or by PC Smith, nor BS-man, nor the Mitre Sq. suspect.
They are apparently referring to some other suspect.

One possibility is that it resembles the man seen outside the Britannia by both Sarah Lewis, and Mrs Kennedy. Which could account for the use of the term "others". I am not suggesting the Britannia man resembled Astrachan, but superficially, he is the nearest example that we know of.

I only offer the Britannia man as an outside possibility, as I can almost feel the agony of those who would sooner slit their wrists rather than accept that Astrachan was seen by other witnesses.

[Mr Lucky]

Wickerman,

Actually, with hindsight I was thinking of this particular press release - but this was attached to the second time Hutchinson's statement was published, so this refers to the early version of his description published on Tuesday with out his name attached

Last evening a man named George Hutchinson, a groom, who is now working as a labourer, made the following statement to a reporter, and his description of the murderer agrees in every particular with that already furnished by the police and published yesterday morning

However, regarding this "They carefully observed his appearance, which was that of a foreigner about 5ft. 8in. in height and having a long pointed moustache. He was dressed in a long black overcoat and deerstalker hat. When near Bishopsgate Street the young men spoke to a policeman, who at once stopped the stranger and took him to Bishopsgate Street Police Station."

It seems that the man in the long black coat had been arrested without actually doing anything - so his appearance may have at least been partially responsible. but was that likely at that stage - regarding the 53 statements, it would have taken quite an effort and some time for the investigators to process all of them, I wonder what stage they were at in this process by the time this PC arrested the suspect on Bishopsgate street - perhaps he was going on something else, surely not Mrs Paumier's man in a silk hat !!

Also there is this "Telegraphing at 11 o'clock <monday morning>, a correspondent says:- Great excitement was caused shortly before 10 o'clock to-night in the East End by the arrest of a man with blackened face, who publicly proclaimed himself to be "Jack the Ripper." This was at the corner of Wentworth street, Commercial street, near the scene of the latest crime. Two young men, one a discharged soldier, seized him, and the great crowd which always on Sunday night parades this neighbourhood raised a cry of "Lynch him." Sticks were raised, and the man was furiously attacked, and but for the timely arrival of the police he would have been seriously injured. The police took him to Leman street station, when the prisoner proved to be a very remarkable person. He refused to give any name, but asserted he was a doctor at St. George's Hospital. His age is about 35, height 5ft. 7in., complexion dark, dark moustache, and he was wearing spectacles. He wore no waistcoat, but had an ordinary jersey vest. In his pocket he had a double-peaked light check cap, and at the time of arrest was bareheaded. It took four civilians to take him to the station and protect him from the infuriated crowd. He is detained in custody, and it seems the police attach importance to the arrest, as the man's appearance answers to the police description of the man wanted."

Additionally - do we have a description of George Compton? As "Compton does not bear any personal resemblance to the published description of the man who is supposed to be the murderer."

I should point out that I'm not actually suggesting any of these people are involved, but I'm trying to look at what description(s) the police were interested in at this time (pre- Hutchinson)

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky

Do you think the same killer is involved in the torsos and the Whitechapel killings ?

Not sure how important the Pimlico connection is for you, but I think I remember a story about a woman who claimed she had been drugged by a man in Pimlico - but the magistrate through the case out, so nothing came of it.

Hi lucky, I do think personally that it's the same killer. That sounds very interesting about the drugging. The chloroform is a huge red flag. The way eddowes was knocked out on the street and possibly answered "nothing" as her name almost looks like she could have been drugged though not specifically chloroform

[Mr Lucky]

Hi lucky, I do think personally that it's the same killer. That sounds very interesting about the drugging. The chloroform is a huge red flag. The way eddowes was knocked out on the street and possibly answered "nothing" as her name almost looks like she could have been drugged though not specifically chloroform

Hi Rocky

I'm finding the Rainham torso case more and more interesting - for a couple of reasons, it appears to be one of the cases that created the chimera of the mythical first murder (who in the 20th century became known as Fairy Fay) which appeared on the victims lists in the press at the time.

Re drugging case - Actually, I was quite mistaken about that incident in Pimlico - the woman was acting strangely before the man offered her some "sol volatile". Anyway it's here;-

Shields Daily Gazette 8 July 1887 page 3 'another police mystery'

However, there are other cases of suspected drugging during the LVP, and I presume you know of Dr Cream and his pills.