geometry, watson

[Batman]

What an absolute load of twaddle !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

No, that would be the findings of the dissertations here on casebook about the suspect you are committed too in your books.

[MayBea]

...the formula produces a hot zone that happens to be...George's Yard.

Around the corner you have the death of Martha Tabram. The attack on Emma Smith.

Plus a bonus problem that non other than George Chapman worked in George's Yard a few years after the killings stopped.

Yes, those are problems with this geo-profile.

Why start murdering away from your residence if there was a murder right around the corner that they end up thinking is yours?

If you're a copycat, why not just stay in the same area to confuse the investigators?

Local or visiting outsider, I think the double event puts the hot zone to the west.

[Batman]

Yes, those are problems with this geo-profile.

Why start murdering away from your residence if there was a murder right around the corner that they end up thinking is yours?

If you're a copycat, why not just stay in the same area to confuse the investigators?

Local or visiting outsider, I think the double event puts the hot zone to the west.

In many cases like this the first victim is known to the offender and the MO/signature can vary a lot.

It is only after this that a potential lust killers will try to reenact his crime on someone else, repeating the event but with variation based on their fantasy, which develops. See Ted Bundy and Ann Marie Burr.

Similarities between the first victim and later victims are usually not connected right away and sometimes remains obscure. See Zodiac Killer and Cheri Jo Bates.

Both examples above are obscure like Tabram but then there are the ones which have been connected and usually the victim is a neighbour or lives close.

[John G]

In many cases like this the first victim is known to the offender and the MO/signature can vary a lot.

It is only after this that a potential lust killers will try to reenact his crime on someone else, repeating the event but with variation based on their fantasy, which develops. See Ted Bundy and Ann Marie Burr.

Similarities between the first victim and later victims are usually not connected right away and sometimes remains obscure. See Zodiac Killer and Cheri Jo Bates.

Both examples above are obscure like Tabram but then there are the ones which have been connected and usually the victim is a neighbour or lives close.

But determining the first victim of a serial killer can be little more than guesswork, particularly as the MO can be very different from his mature MO. For instance, I wouldn't rule out Wilson, Smith or even Horsnell as JtR's first. As for Zodiac, Domingos and Edwards could be much earlier victims, especially as this double murder very closely matches his subsequent MO.

[Trevor Marriott]

No, that would be the findings of the dissertations here on casebook about the suspect you are committed too in your books.

Keep up to date, I like many others, do not subscribe to the singular killer theory !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Batman]

Keep up to date, I like many others, do not subscribe to the singular killer theory !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Well dissertations on here, vast articles in ripperology publications, academic books, journals and especially the contemporary investigators all disagree with that.

However I suppose its nice for you guys to get a voice in blogs and on internet forums.

[MayBea]

I don't think geo-profiling factors in disorganized versus organized, local or outsider. It just takes the locations and the travel routes, and perhaps the times of the crimes, and uses a straight equation to come up with an unbiased answer.

The result is actually two nexuses, one near the western perimeter. A residence or bolt-hole there would change the whole complexion of the case/

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=2473&page=5

[Batman]

You are right.

In my original post I noted that #2 would be due to statistical deduction of travelling to the red light.

In 1888 I believe this was a type of 'slumming'.

However the reason why I go for #1 is because of Tabram. I think she was first.

I believe 2 weeks ago, here on CB I was shown Keppels Article in a journal that accepted C5+1.

Given how there was no prior accounting for these murders to be the work of a copycat (a post-20 century phenomena , without presidence before*) I think logic says the odds are in favour of #1.

I appreciate your observations.




*Would love to read an article in a good reference to the opposite, but never have.

[MayBea]

Thanks, Batman. I appreciate your observations as well.

And those of Mr. Marriott. They show the general aversion to geometric concepts no matter if they exist or even help your case. A double nexus geo-profile might actually help the multiple killer scenario.

Any question that a geometric Ripper, conscious or unconscious, would be in the minority?

One problem I have with a central residential location at George's Yard is that the only killer(s) I can think of who fashioned a general circle around their residence was the Hillside Stranglers and most of their killings were done at the central location and then the bodies dumped around it (i.e. Buono's shop). See bottom of link below.

http://murderpedia.org/male.B/b/bian...h-photos-2.htm

[John G]

You are right.

In my original post I noted that #2 would be due to statistical deduction of travelling to the red light.

In 1888 I believe this was a type of 'slumming'.

However the reason why I go for #1 is because of Tabram. I think she was first.

I believe 2 weeks ago, here on CB I was shown Keppels Article in a journal that accepted C5+1.

Given how there was no prior accounting for these murders to be the work of a copycat (a post-20 century phenomena , without presidence before*) I think logic says the odds are in favour of #1.

I appreciate your observations.




*Would love to read an article in a good reference to the opposite, but never have.

Smith was attacked just yards from where Tabram was murdered, a massive coincidence in itself, and her assault mirrors that of Nichols and Chapman much more closely than Tabram's. Keppel probably rejected Smith because of her claim to have been attacked by a gang, but that can be questioned, not least because it avoided suggestions that she'd been soliciting. Dew believed Smith, Tabram and Nichols were attacked by the same man, as did Inspector Reid. Abberline and Helson also initially held the same view.

[Batman]

why reject geoprofiling if its being used by its critics?

If a critic of geoprofiling has a suspect and if they have invoked the suspects residence, location, movements, work and timing, then how can they critic it?

For example, some critics of this method have attempted to link the suspect through shipping routes and going to Whitechapel/America etc.

Others invoke living nearby.

Wouldn't that be hypocritical?

[somerset]

wait . . . what?

Geoprofiling, hot spots, copycats . . . lots of good points, but I don't know about it all. Then again, I'm just a cadet.

A question still stands, though - why did our subject kill where he did? Because the victims were prostitutes and not royal heirs or spies or politicians, I don't think he spent many nights poring over maps of the East End weaving a brilliantly elaborate plan together or anything. Maybe he just haunted the streets looking for a victim, and in that case the killings would be random, right?

Nobody seems to believe the crime scenes meant anything to the subject (or subjects, as we've now brought up), which makes sense because of the somewhat unparticular victimology, but any other thoughts out there are appreciated.


Cheers,
somerset

[MayBea]

I tend to see the victimology being very specific, and the sites as not random when the first four are respectively, a place where witches were drowned, near a Salvation Army lodging house, next to a Jewish Workers' Union, and finally Mitre-Square.

[GUT]

I tend to see the victimology being very specific, and the sites as not random when the first four are respectively, a place where witches were drowned, near a Salvation Army lodging house, next to a Jewish Workers' Union, and finally Mitre-Square.

And the relevance of those are???

Each murder had to be near something, so unless you can link those things they are useless, that also predisposes the acceptance of at least a c4.

If Martha was a victm what the relevance of her location, if MJK what then.

[MayBea]

Each murder had to be near something...

Only one was "near something". One was next to something, and two were IN something.

Martha's location? George's Yard? I don't know. If you want to include her into that theory, I guess you could. It's up to you. Maybe King George and the Dragon? We had a murder in Kings Mill Park and the killer's name was Roy.

MJK's location isn't relevant so maybe MKJ is. The Ripper even seems to be reversing or "spiraling" inward wheras most profilers think SKs spiral outward.

Maybe it is a secondary comfort zone as Douglas thinks. And the murder locations there are really just a blob of points. It's unusually close to the first murder/comfort zone though perhaps due to the high population density.

The relevance of those locations, as they possibly relate to each other, would be toward the killers unconscious thought process if you believe he had one.