Different Killers

[RockySullivan]

Hello Rocky,

Trow's book explains that other body parts were found separately to the torso and, as they had almost certainly been there for longer, the killer must have visited the site at least twice. Moreover, the Torso, unlike the other body parts, was not buried, possibly indicating that he was disturbed or that it was left for display purposes.

Trow also considers the evidence of an unnamed witness who, according to the Illustrated Police News, generally considered an unreliable publication with no connection to the police, saw three men outside of the site, two of whom were with a barrow. However, there is no evidence that the police investigated the matter and it seems strange that anyone would move a body that way in front of a witness. Trow considers that the story may be exaggerated or untrue.

If you haven't already got The Thames Torso Murders, by MJ Trow, I can recommend it as a detailed account of this series of murders. It is currently available on Kindle at a very cheap price.

Very interesting john thank you. I've read poor things about trows book but perhaps I will have to read it as torso info is limited. I tend to avoid most suspect books as most authors seem to try to twist the facts to suit their theory.

The foreman at whitehall said he believed previous knowledge of the vault was necessary...this should drastically limit the suspect pool if he is correct. I'm a broken record but I think the stolen tools from the vault are key here as that was what the vault was used for by the workers. If the body parts were buried torso must have planned to use a shovel from the vault implying he knew there was one there. Unless he brought one which seems u likely especially if he's one person. If torso had been there once to bury the limbs, another time to leave the torso and if the foreman is correct also prior to that (possibly to steal tools) it starts to look like he's a frequent visitor to the vault. It starts to seem like perhaps he had a reason to be there.

[John G]

Very interesting john thank you. I've read poor things about trows book but perhaps I will have to read it as torso info is limited. I tend to avoid most suspect books as most authors seem to try to twist the facts to suit their theory.

The foreman at whitehall said he believed previous knowledge of the vault was necessary...this should drastically limit the suspect pool if he is correct. I'm a broken record but I think the stolen tools from the vault are key here as that was what the vault was used for by the workers. If the body parts were buried torso must have planned to use a shovel from the vault implying he knew there was one there. Unless he brought one which seems u likely especially if he's one person. If torso had been there once to bury the limbs, another time to leave the torso and if the foreman is correct also prior to that (possibly to steal tools) it starts to look like he's a frequent visitor to the vault. It starts to seem like perhaps he had a reason to be there.

Hello Rocky,

Trow agrees that he must have had knowledge of the site. However, there is the question as to how he accessed the site as the main way would have been through the gates on Cannon Row but these were locked, high and difficult to negotiate. Trow suggests it more likely that access was gained via the river, either from one of the many builders carts or from Westminster Pier where timber was unloaded.

It's a while since I read the book. I remember, however, that it was a reasonably good read, say 3 stars out of 5, but it does include a lot of detail. And, if you have a Kindle, it's extremely cheap at the moment!

[Harry D]

Do multi-killer theorists believe that Eddowes & Kelly's murders were committed by the same hand or not? With Stride also debated, that means we have no less than FOUR violent murderers using Whitechapel as their stomping ground over a period of twelve weeks. Then after the sudden outbreak of violence the murders quickly petered out to the odd cut-throat and no extensive mutilations?

[Batman]

Here is a prime example of variation with a single killer under remarkably similar instance to the Whitechapel murders. The Ipswitch murders.

From wiki... Two of the victims, Anneli Alderton and Paula Clennell, were confirmed to have been killed by asphyxiation. A cause of death for the other victims, Gemma Adams, Tania Nicol and Annette Nicholls, was not established..

[lynn cates]

Brave, brave Sir Robert

Hello Trevor. Thanks.

"We all know that to be the case, but did they publicly admit that?"

Well, Sir Robert did.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

currency

Hello John.

"But why stop at the C5? Consideration surely has to be given to Smith, Horsnell, Millwood, Wilson, Haynes, Tabram, Mylett, McKenzie, Coles, the Pinchin Street Torso, and Austin. Just reflect on the numerous factors that all of the aforementioned attacks have in common: they were all brutal; they were all rare; they were all unsolved (with no serious suspects); they all took place within a small geographical area; and, with the exception of Austin, they all took place within a relatively short time frame (1887-1891)."

Precisely. In for a penny, in for a pound.

Cheers
LC

[lynn cates]

It's Kurtens for the theory.

Hello Batman.

"I think that would seriously compromise any lust murderer view of the C5."

Ooh, mustn't have THAT.

"Which then would have a whole load of retroactive questions like how then could these become a basis for other lust killer investigations where more, sometimes many more, died at the hands of one person?"

Simple. Peter Kurten admitted to having read about "JTR." Wonder if "JTR" read about Kurten?

Cheers.
LC

[shaun1956]

double event?

First of new to the site and although i have read most replies on this subject i havent read them all so i accidently step on someones toes i apologise in advance, I look at it from another angle, firstly i believe there no-way Mrs Stride and Mrs Eddowes were killed by the same hand, my reasons are as follows Mrs Stride was believed to be murdered between 12.50 and 1.00am Mrs Eddows murdered between 1.20 and 1.40 am taking account for the time of mutilations and the discovery of the body there is probebly no more than 25-30 minutes between the murders, the walk from Berner st to Mitre Sq takes at a good clip 15 minutes now baring in mind if he is running away from the scene of a murder after being so called interupted this would draw immidiate attention to himself he then has to calm himself find time to proposition another girl take her to and find a secluded spot bearing in mind Mrs Eddows had just released from the police station having been paraletic only 4hours earlier no food no water she would have been still half cut and groggy when released and would not have been able to rush anywhere, so regardless of the differing MO of the two murders the timeline unless carried out with milltary precision and the total co-operation of the victims seems to me at least impossible, my final point is the discovery in goulston st, my opinion is after the mitre sq murder while making his escape he has quite obviously entered into the Whitechapel area unaware a murder had taken place and into a hornets nest of activity where the police were stopping searching people having on his possesion various items and he must have been bloodied he had to hide, he then turned left into gaulston st and laid low in the stairwell until the furore had lestened this would account for the delay in discovering the apron for i believe when pc long walked past the entrance and saw nothing the murderer was hiding there all the time as for the graffiti maybe he wrote it to pass the time while waiting his opportunity to get away which he did after discarding the apron and who knows what else for although it seems grusome to say any meat left on the ground would have been devoured in minutes if not seconds by the many rats stray dogs and cats that plagued that area, all supposition i know but having no concrete evidence either way thats all we have, although i firmly believe the Mrs Eddows murder was the one and only time the police came within touching distance of catching the murderer.

[jerryd]

Two killers

The following are two extracts from the Philadelphia Times, December 3, 1888.


THE POLICE AT WORK The ablest officers were detailed to work up the case, but the fullest investigation of the meagre facts at their disposal failed to lead to the apprehension of the murderer. They however arrived at a conclusion which, if correct, tends to explode the almost universally-held theory that these horrible crimes are all the work of a single miscreant. Carefully calculating the time it would take to cover the ground between Berners (sic) street and Mitre Square and having approximately fixed the hour at which each murder was committed they were forced to the conclusion that if the same man murdered both the women Catharine Beddowes (sic) must have met him by appointment in Mitre Square, as the supposition that he found her in this unfrequented place at the exact moment he desired was clearly untenable. It must be borne in mind that the saloons in London all close promptly at 12.30 A.M. The unhappy women of the class to which Elizabeth Stride and Catharine Beddowes (sic) belonged find the only field for obtaining their wretched means of livelihood, after the drinking places have closed, among the crowds of half-drunken men who throng the leading thoroughfares of the district.
It is obvious, then, that at 1 P.M. the woman Stride (sic) would not have been parading the silent Mitre Square, wholly unfrequented after dark, unless she was waiting there for some one. On the other hand if the murderer of Elizabeth Stride in Berners (sic) street had not been interrupted in his ghastly work, judging by the mutilations practiced in the other cases, he would have spent at least another quarter of an hour at his devilish work. Admitting this, he would have been then too late to keep his appointment with Beddowes (sic), and it is only on the supposition that such an appointment had been made, and that the woman went there to meet the murderer, that the theory of the two murders having been committed by the same hand will hold water.

TWO MURDERERS. The city detectives then early in the first week of October came to a definite conclusion, namely, that the two women met their death at the hands of different men. It was but taking a single step further to conclude that these two men were acting in collusion. The long interval that had elapsed between this and the previous butchery, the fact that the women belonged to the same class and the coincidence that the killing was done within the same thirty-five minutes all pointed to the same conclusion - that the murders had been deliberately planned, probably to be consummated at the same moment, for if even a couple of hours had elapsed between the two crimes the neighborhood would on the discovery of the first, have become so "hot" that the perpetrator of the second outrage would have found the matter of his escape rendered doubly difficult.
The two brainy men who thus theorized, although they firmly believed they had at last opened the case, were still at a loss in what direction to look for the authors of the fearful crimes. With the utmost patience they sought out the degraded companions of the dead women, and bit by bit they learned all that probably ever will be known of their habits, tastes and mode of life.

[John G]

I think that would seriously compromise any lust murderer view of the C5.

Which then would have a whole load of retroactive questions like how then could these become a basis for other lust killer investigations where more, sometimes many more, died at the hands of one person?

It would mean that the investigators guessed a single hand, investigated a single hand theme and Dr.Bond who is credited with the first attempt at profiling serial killers, all of these people, just happened to stumble upon a framework that would later be expanded upon, developed and used to catch and understand future serial killers. Or they got it right by predicting a single hand and said prediction has been used further with great success.

In most cases like this, especially older cases, the murderer was likely questioned by investigators either in relation to the crime or something similar. However, Whitechapel had a high population densities in doss houses where people with money could come and go. People stayed and passed through these in droves. If JtR, even as a trophy taker, could manage to slip in and out of these, he will never be known, due to sheer volume of people, even in the 1991 census, they are overwhelming.

I agree that it would undermine the lust killer theory. However, I don't find, myself, that there's an obvious solution. For instance, one of the arguments linking the C5 is the fact that they were rare murders, that took place within a relatively short time frame and small geographical area. But that argument clearly also applies to the other unsolved murders and brutal attacks I referred to.

So who was responsible for these crimes? Surely there couldn't be multiple serial killers at large, all operating independently of one another. And the alternative of there being several, unconnected individual killers doesn't seem very likely either. What about copycats? Well, as I've noted before, they mainly exist in crime fiction. And such a scenario doesn't account for the Torso Murders, Wilson, Smith, Haynes and Millwood.

It's all a bit of a conundrum.

[lynn cates]

another voice

Hello Jerry.

Yes, good quote. I think it was George Lewis who felt strongly about this as well.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

The following are two extracts from the Philadelphia Times, December 3, 1888.


THE POLICE AT WORK The ablest officers were detailed to work up the case, but the fullest investigation of the meagre facts at their disposal failed to lead to the apprehension of the murderer. They however arrived at a conclusion which, if correct, tends to explode the almost universally-held theory that these horrible crimes are all the work of a single miscreant. Carefully calculating the time it would take to cover the ground between Berners (sic) street and Mitre Square and having approximately fixed the hour at which each murder was committed they were forced to the conclusion that if the same man murdered both the women Catharine Beddowes (sic) must have met him by appointment in Mitre Square, as the supposition that he found her in this unfrequented place at the exact moment he desired was clearly untenable. It must be borne in mind that the saloons in London all close promptly at 12.30 A.M. The unhappy women of the class to which Elizabeth Stride and Catharine Beddowes (sic) belonged find the only field for obtaining their wretched means of livelihood, after the drinking places have closed, among the crowds of half-drunken men who throng the leading thoroughfares of the district.
It is obvious, then, that at 1 P.M. the woman Stride (sic) would not have been parading the silent Mitre Square, wholly unfrequented after dark, unless she was waiting there for some one. On the other hand if the murderer of Elizabeth Stride in Berners (sic) street had not been interrupted in his ghastly work, judging by the mutilations practiced in the other cases, he would have spent at least another quarter of an hour at his devilish work. Admitting this, he would have been then too late to keep his appointment with Beddowes (sic), and it is only on the supposition that such an appointment had been made, and that the woman went there to meet the murderer, that the theory of the two murders having been committed by the same hand will hold water.

TWO MURDERERS. The city detectives then early in the first week of October came to a definite conclusion, namely, that the two women met their death at the hands of different men. It was but taking a single step further to conclude that these two men were acting in collusion. The long interval that had elapsed between this and the previous butchery, the fact that the women belonged to the same class and the coincidence that the killing was done within the same thirty-five minutes all pointed to the same conclusion - that the murders had been deliberately planned, probably to be consummated at the same moment, for if even a couple of hours had elapsed between the two crimes the neighborhood would on the discovery of the first, have become so "hot" that the perpetrator of the second outrage would have found the matter of his escape rendered doubly difficult.
The two brainy men who thus theorized, although they firmly believed they had at last opened the case, were still at a loss in what direction to look for the authors of the fearful crimes. With the utmost patience they sought out the degraded companions of the dead women, and bit by bit they learned all that probably ever will be known of their habits, tastes and mode of life.

I think if the police believed that Eddowes met her killer by appointment they really were starting to loose the plot! Mind you, as there is some evidence that Stride may have arranged to meet her killer maybe JtR was the sort of serial killer who insisted on meeting his victims by appointment only!

[Batman]

Do multi-killer theorists believe that Eddowes & Kelly's murders were committed by the same hand or not? With Stride also debated, that means we have no less than FOUR violent murderers using Whitechapel as their stomping ground over a period of twelve weeks. Then after the sudden outbreak of violence the murders quickly petered out to the odd cut-throat and no extensive mutilations?

This post is my favorite so far. By far. Like others have said "best poster in ages". Some even accused him of being a detective.

1888 Whitechapel is unique.

[Wickerman]

So who was responsible for these crimes? Surely there couldn't be multiple serial killers at large, all operating independently of one another. And the alternative of there being several, unconnected individual killers doesn't seem very likely either. What about copycats? Well, as I've noted before, they mainly exist in crime fiction. And such a scenario doesn't account for the Torso Murders, Wilson, Smith, Haynes and Millwood.

It's all a bit of a conundrum.

Sounds like an Agatha Christie plot.

[John G]

Sounds like an Agatha Christie plot.

Or, to borrow from Churchill, "A riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma"!