Different Killers

[lynn cates]

accept no imitations

Hello BM.

". . . commentary made by medical experts and the investigators."

You mean Baxter's, "Possibly the work of an imitator"? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Hello BM.

". . . commentary made by medical experts and the investigators."

You mean Baxter's, "Possibly the work of an imitator"? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

Ah quote mining. You have more in common with creationism than I thought.


There had been no skilful mutilation as in the cases of Nichols and Chapman, and no unskilful injuries as in the case in Mitre-square - possibly the work of an imitator; but there had been the same skill exhibited in the way in which the victim had been entrapped, and the injuries inflicted, so as to cause instant death and prevent blood from soiling the operator, and the same daring defiance of immediate detection, which, unfortunately for the peace of the inhabitants and trade of the neighbourhood, had hitherto been only too successful.

You call this a claim of multi killers by Baxter? He is outlining a case for similarities even IF there was no sign of skill.

[Natasha]

Hi Natasha

The hand was relaxing after death so the cachous could have been held in a fist (whilst defending herself) and then slipped as her hand relaxed.

Hi Jon,

It is a possibility, it's just because they were lodged between the finger and thumb it makes me wonder why it wouldn't be more in the palm of the hand.

[Natasha]

Hello Natasha. Um, no box, paper only.

Why would someone place them in her hand?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I have wondered this myself, and I suspect that perhaps the ripper left them as some kind of joke. Having said that though, it also occurred to me that perhaps Stride may have took them out of the killer's pocket. The sweets being found between the finger and thumb makes me think that.

[Natasha]

Hello Natasha,

I have never heard that they were in a box. Can you give a reference to that?

c.d.

Hi CD,

It was Dr. Frederick William Blackwell who said it.

He said the cachous was in a packet wrapped in tissue paper. The Star published a statement Dr. Blackwell had made to the press, in which they say a box.

http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/frederick-blackwell.html

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon.

"Lizzie has a busy schedule by those estimates."

Of course, it depends on the accuracy of those sightings.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.

Yes, the eternal curse of the pet theory, and the never ending query of the witness story - accuracy.

[Ausgirl]

Hello Natasha. Um, no box, paper only.

Why would someone place them in her hand?

Cheers.
LC

Was there or wasn't there a box???!!! /flail

Really, it doesn't matter what she had in her hand, salty peanuts or breath mints or any other sort of snack food. The important question for me is: how'd she manage to hang on to them, through an obviously violent attack, and afterwards too (if it was a spasm, this wouldn't relax moments after death to allow the packet to roll anywhere, as evidenced by other cases of cadaveric spasm, where the object is still held tightly after death).

Why would someone put them there? Who knows. People capable of cutting a throat *might* not be all about rational lines of thinking. It could have been some private snub to the victim, for all we know. The placing of objects near or on a body after a murder is not unusual or unknown behaviour.

[chrismasonic]

Your welcome to your opinion but a pathology report is a fact of the matter. What do you think its for? Decoration?

I think it is a educated guess and forensic science in its infancy...

what a doctor says happened is not a fact...

they were not witness to the event...

at best a percentage of evidence examined correctly...

and most probably a major factor in this case remaining unsolved...

[lynn cates]

inability

Hello BM. Thanks.

Yes, those "similarities" were largely the police inability to solve the murders. So, in that way, they were DEFINITELY similar.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

experiment

Hello Natasha.

"it's just because they were lodged between the finger and thumb it makes me wonder why it wouldn't be more in the palm of the hand."

Try this. Place a coin in your pocket and then retrieve it. Where is the coin vis-a-vis your hand/fingers?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

clench

Hello Ausgirl. Thanks.

No, no box. The majority of reports indicated tissue paper.

Holding on to them is no trick. If a sudden movement is made to the neck (like grabbing a scarf tightly), the hands will clench into a fist.

My problem, as CD indicates, is WHY she is going for the cachous? Surely not whilst being attacked by the purported BSM?

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

You use this term deranged but was this killer deranged I have to agree with you. Personally though I don't subscribe to one singular killer for all the victims.

If the killer was deranged and certainly his actions in killing and mutilating Chapman, Tabram, Nicholls and Eddowes suggest that. But would a deranged killer, killing quickly be able to suddenly come back to reality,calm down sufficiently enough and be able to remove organs, with what has been described as some anatomical knowledge,in double quick time in almost total darkness?

Try not to fall into the trap of believing all that has been written about these murders. In the first instance look at each one individually and not collectively you get a much clearer picture that way. Ignore the Canonical five as being the only victims of this killer or killers. And when you go back and look at the C5 you can see that two of those were not killed by the same hand.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

I would certainly agree that of all of the C5 victims, plus Tabram, Stride is the least likely. My position is that there are finely balanced arguments on both sides For me, the balance is tilted in favour of her being a victim, but I fully respect the alternative view presented by Ripperologists such as yourself, and Lynn, who clearly have an encyclopaedic knowledge of the case.

Of course, for many the "double event" is what makes it likely that Stride's and Eddowes' murders are linked. But I think your right, after full consideration I believe that it's a factor that probably makes it less, not more likely.

In fact, as you know I'm quite fond of statistics, and I've been half expecting someone such as yourself, or Lynn, to come back at me with statistics confirming the rarity of "double events"!

Nonetheless, rare doesn't mean unprecedented. Ted Bundy once attacked 5 victims in one night. Incredibly, he seemed to de-escalate as the night went on; all 5 victims were bludgeoned, but only the first 2 were strangled and the last 3 victims actually survived.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,

I would certainly agree that of all of the C5 victims, plus Tabram, Stride is the least likely. My position is that there are finely balanced arguments on both sides For me, the balance is tilted in favour of her being a victim, but I fully respect the alternative view presented by Ripperologists such as yourself, and Lynn, who clearly have an encyclopaedic knowledge of the case.

Of course, for many the "double event" is what makes it likely that Stride's and Eddowes' murders are linked. But I think your right, after full consideration I believe that it's a factor that probably makes it less, not more likely.

In fact, as you know I'm quite fond of statistics, and I've been half expecting someone such as yourself, or Lynn, to come back at me with statistics confirming the rarity of "double events"!

Nonetheless, rare doesn't mean unprecedented. Ted Bundy once attacked 5 victims in one night. Incredibly, he seemed to de-escalate as the night went on; all 5 victims were bludgeoned, but only the first 2 were strangled and the last 3 victims actually survived.

I know it is difficult accept that Stride was not murdered by the same hand. But everything about her murder is so different from all of the others.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Batman]

I think it is a educated guess and forensic science in its infancy...

what a doctor says happened is not a fact...

they were not witness to the event...

at best a percentage of evidence examined correctly...

and most probably a major factor in this case remaining unsolved...

You don't have to 'be there' observing anything to obtain a fact.
Observation is subject to its own problems hence why you do the pathology. Just read a little science. They had this figured out by the start of the 1800.

[Batman]

Hello BM. Thanks.

Yes, those "similarities" were largely the police inability to solve the murders. So, in that way, they were DEFINITELY similar.

Cheers.
LC

Read the whole thing again especially the bit in bold that says... but there had been the same skill exhibited in the way in which the victim had been entrapped, and the injuries inflicted...

Same skill in how the injuries inflicted.