Different Killers

[Harry D]

Read the thread pipeman cleared.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8520&highlight=pipeman+cleared

Paul Begg gives reasons why many people where arrested and one of them likely pipeman. They hauled in a lot over this one.

In Abberline's memo, Pipeman is still described as an "alleged accomplice" which couldn't be the case if he had already been identified and cleared.

[Batman]

Is that before or after this ....

On the 19th October 1888, Swanson wrote that 'the police apparently do not suspect the second man,’ [with respect to Sightings of Stride on the night of her murder].

[Harry D]

After, I believe.

[Batman]

I wonder if Swanson and Abberline got on together because those views are opposed unless new information came to light to put Pipeman back in the spotlight after being cleared, which seems unlikely.

[John G]

Hello John.

Thanks.

I think that your post may represent the first time ANYONE (besides me) has worried over directions.

My problem is why and when Liz took them out.

Regarding a frontal assault, position is all wrong for it.

Could she have gone up the passage to meet someone at the side door?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Thank you for your kind reply.

I've been thinking this through but I'm not sure that I'm any the wiser.

Okay, to address you're question of whether she could have been meeting someone at the side door.

The question is who could it have been? Michael Kidney is an obvious possibility, but why would she be meeting him at that location? I mean, as far as I'm aware neither Kidney or Stride had any association with the club. He could have course have been luring her into a trap but this seems completely far-fetched to me, not least because there surely had to be much better location to spring a trap than outside a busy club.

Considering Stride's known movements that night. Two witnesses claimed that they observed Stride being embraced by a well-dressed man, who had no facial hair or eyebrows. Even assuming this was an accurate sighting I would tend to rule him out: why would she be meeting him at the club almost 2 hours later? Moreover, he clearly had a very distinctive appearance so I would have expected more witness sightings if they had arranged to meet again later in the evening, particularly if he had subsequently visited the club, i.e to catch the last bit of the talk.

Next sightings where those of Packer and Marshall. Setting aside the reliability of either of these sightings, the same difficulty arises as with the earlier sighting: they allegedly occurred between 11:45 and 12:15, so why would she have been meeting either man at the club some time later?

Next, PC Smith. He's at least a more reliable witness, and claimed that he saw Stride with a man at 12:35. But, of course, this was opposite the club, not a meeting at the side of the club.

Schwarz's sighting, which might not be reliable, suffers from the same problem. If he's correct with his timings he must have seen her close to the time she was killed but, again, the problem is that he claims he saw Stride with BS man outside the gates of the club, not by the side door.

James Brown? Of course, this possible sighting was in Fairclough Street at around 12:50, very close to the time Stride must have been killed; but this obviously doesn't accord with an assignation by the side door of the club shortly afterwards.

Could she have been meeting someone who was inside the club? Joseph Lave would seem an obvious suspect. He claimed to have left the club at 12:40 to, allegedly, escape the smoke-filled rooms. I think he's a more plausible candidate for secret boyfriend: he lived at the club so meeting him there would seem logical. However, is there any evidence he left by the side door? And timings might be an even bigger problem. According to Dr Blackwell Stride was killed between 12:45 and 1:00 am, so I suppose it might just have been possible that he was Stride's killer. However, Begg (2004) presents a reasonable argument, to suggest Stride was killed later than 12:45: If she was killed at around that time would blood have still been gushing from her throat when Spooner arrived around 15 minutes later?

What about an assignation at the side door with an unknown boyfriend, who had been inside the club? I can imagine a possible scenario; she tells him it's all over, she's going back to Kidney. They argue, briefly, and Stride walks off. The man follows her and attacks her from behind. Possible, bit there is no evidence that anyone left or re-entered the club close to the likely time of death, unless someone left and entered unobserved, or there was a club conspiracy to protect the suspect.

Could an unknown suspect, who was not inside the club, have arranged to meet Stride by the side door. The problem is why there? As I noted earlier, it hardly seems an ideal place to spring a trap. And the talk, for example, had finished over an hour before Stride's likely time of death, so I don't think it very likely that anyone would have planned to visit the club with Stride at that time.

I'm not sure I'm any the wiser, apart from the fact that Stride seemed to have met a lot of boyfriends that night! On a more positive note, I've decided to elevate Joseph Lave to number 43 on my list of JtR suspects!

Best wishes,

John

[Batman]

Schwarz's sighting, which might not be reliable, suffers from the same problem. If he's correct with his timings he must have seen her close to the time she was killed but, again, the problem is that he claims he saw Stride with BS man outside the gates of the club, not by the side door.

There is only a few meters between the gate and the side door.

Stride's side was caked in mud while the other side was cleaner.

There was community singing in the club, hence why nobody heard anything unusual.

[John G]

There is only a few meters between the gate and the side door.

Stride's side was caked in mud while the other side was cleaner.

There was community singing in the club, hence why nobody heard anything unusual.

Hi Batman,

Just to edit my last post, line 4 should read "your question" and not "you're question". Typo or grammatical mistake! And the earliest sighting by the two witnesses was about 11:00pm.

I certainly wouldn't rule out BS man as the killer but I don't think she arranged to meet him by the side door. According to the Official report Scwartz saw the attacker stop and speak to Stride who was standing in the gateway. That seems to imply that the man was walking by when he came across Stride. However, of course he was Hungarian and seemed to have a poor grasp of English. There also seems to be no evidence the police used an interpreter, so perhaps we should exercise caution when considering the accuracy of this report.

[c.d.]

If everyone living in Whitechapel dropped whatever they had the moment they where assaulted, thieves would be very rich indeed.

I think Long Liz may have just had more gusto than you think... But lost, obviously.

Hello Batman,

But we need to be clear here. Lynn and I are not talking about the cachous and why she was able to hold on to them in death. We are talking about her being thrown to the ground per Schwartz's story. The natural reaction is to catch yourself with your hands outspread. Once on the ground, in order to get back to a standing position, the natural inclination is to put your weight on your hands again as they are outspread. We know that Liz was not killed on the spot where she was seen by Schwartz but in the passageway. Now if she was dragged there by the B.S. man the natural reaction would be to try and push him away. That requires that your hand be open. While not impossible, it is hard to imagine the cachous which were only wrapped in tissue paper not spilling as a result of all this. Therefore, the question is when did she take out the cachous? It doesn't make a lot of sense that she would do so while while still in the presence of the B.S. man. The most likely answer to me anyway is that the B.S. man had left the scene and Liz no longer felt like she was in danger.

c.d.

[c.d.]

There is only a few meters between the gate and the side door.

Stride's side was caked in mud while the other side was cleaner.

There was community singing in the club, hence why nobody heard anything unusual.

Both Eagle and Mrs. Diemschitz told the police that they believed they would have heard anything out of the ordinary as the were near an open door. That seems to suggest there was no argument as you would expect in a domestic dispute. Couple that with the fact that Liz was not slapped or hit in the face or stabbed anywhere in the body. You would think that those would have occurred had it been a domestic. And of course there is the police report saying that they did not find anything in her personal life that would lead to such a conclusion.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Question - I think this might have been addressed before but if Liz were meeting someone could she have gone into the club to wait or was that against policy? I mean it is a cold night, it is late and she is a single woman in a bad neighborhood. Wouldn't the gentlemanly thing to do be to tell her to meet him inside?

c.d.

[Batman]

Here is another obvious reason why Eddowes and Stride are linked and why Eddowes is randomly selected by JtR.

If you take the time of Stride's death and then walk towards Mitre Square direction at a pace which isn't making you stand out, would it just so happen that there would be a convergence between that route and a certain prostitute called Eddowes being released from the drunk tank? I think yes and this convergence is evidence that someone leaving Dutfield's yard would have randomly met with Eddowes within a short time of her getting out of the drunk tank. He didn't plan to meet her. She was just there on his route.

If it was the case that they would have to race flat out to meet them or circle blocks a few times to make up for the time gap, that would be interesting but from what I know the timing is bang on for someone leaving Dutfield's yard and is another reason why the investigators linked their deaths.

[Natasha]

In Regards To The Cachous

Hi All

I have mentioned in another thread, that they may have been placed in her hand after she was killed. The cachous were held between the fore finger and the thumb, quite a strange way to hold on to something especially just after having been attacked.

Also they were not only wrapped in tissue paper. They were in a box and the box was wrapped in tissue paper.

[Wickerman]

Assuming the meeting was pure chance, then the question arises, "where was he going?".
Especially as once he removed the piece of apron, then he walked in a different direction.

After killing Stride, did he wander around the streets aimlessly looking for another victim?
If so, then why assume he took a direct route to Mitre Sq.?

If, he did walk directly to Mitre Sq. then why?

[Wickerman]

Hi All

I have mentioned in another thread, that they may have been placed in her hand after she was killed. The cachous were held between the fore finger and the thumb, quite a strange way to hold on to something especially just after having been attacked.

Also they were not only wrapped in tissue paper. They were in a box and the box was wrapped in tissue paper.

I had wondered if she had the cachous up her sleeve, that they were dislodged in the fracas, and fell between her fingers (thumb & forefinger)

[Natasha]

I had wondered if she had the cachous up her sleeve, that they were dislodged in the fracas, and fell between her fingers (thumb & forefinger)

It's a possibility I guess. I wonder weather she was right handed or left. Seeing as the box was in her left hand and there was no mention of blood on that hand, and there was blood on her right hand, I would say she was right handed.
I assume that having been attacked she used her dominant hand, the right hand to clutch at her throat. So saying that I would have thought that if they were up her sleeve, might they have been up her right sleeve.