Different Killers

[Harry D]

Drake, not Dresden.

I guess once suspect-based Ripperology got old, it became increasingly difficult for people to carve out a niche in the field and stand out from the crowd, hence why Lynn & Michael W R etc. have resorted to trying to debunk the notion that there ever was a serial killer active in Whitechapel known as 'Jack the Ripper'. Like I said before, I don't know if deep down they truly believe what they're proposing, or if it's more a case of wanting to challenge the traditional beliefs of an 126 year-old case. It doesn't really matter either way. Their contributions are much appreciated, for if it wasn't for them I wouldn't know what I believe about the case.

[lynn cates]

no niche

Hello Harry. I assure you, these ARE my beliefs.

As far as a niche goes, I want none, I seek none. I am an old chap with one foot in the grave and the other on a peel of banana. ALL I seek is peace of mind and to figure out what happened in the East End ca 1888.

Cheers.
LC

[John Wheat]

To Lynn

ALL I seek is peace of mind and to figure out what happened in the East End ca 1888.

Isn't that what the majority of posters are attempting to do?

Cheers John

[Trevor Marriott]

Drake, not Dresden.

I guess once suspect-based Ripperology got old, it became increasingly difficult for people to carve out a niche in the field and stand out from the crowd, hence why Lynn & Michael W R etc. have resorted to trying to debunk the notion that there ever was a serial killer active in Whitechapel known as 'Jack the Ripper'. Like I said before, I don't know if deep down they truly believe what they're proposing, or if it's more a case of wanting to challenge the traditional beliefs of an 126 year-old case. It doesn't really matter either way. Their contributions are much appreciated, for if it wasn't for them I wouldn't know what I believe about the case.

The evidence does point to the fact that there was no singular Jack the Ripper

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Wickerman]

Depending how you choose to interpret the evidence Trevor.

[Bridewell]

Hello CD.

"Full-frontal assault" would seem to be a gross exaggeration of what Schwartz described which was simply a woman being thrown to the ground.

I agree.

You would also have to wonder why the B.S. man would go on to kill Liz after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man. A reasonable assumption on the part of the B.S. man would be that Schwartz ran off to find the nearest policeman.

Might he not kill simply because he could, knowing that he could probably still get clean away, provided that he didn't waste further time by going on to mutilate?

If Liz was struggling for her life, how did she manage to hold on to the cachous?

We know that she did manage to hold on to them when she was killed. Cadaveric spasm seems as good an explanation as any.

Also, no one at the club heard any argument or noise which seems a bit strange."

Because they were upstairs singing and thus themselves making enough noise to drown out any others?

[Batman]

The evidence does point to the fact that there was no singular Jack the Ripper

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

All on holiday for October then?

[Bridewell]

Depending how you choose to interpret the evidence Trevor.

Indeed. Whilst theories abound, I don't believe that anyone has proved that any one of MacNaghten's C5 could not have been killed by the same murderer as the others.

[Ausgirl]

Hi Lynn,

Interesting how you choose to ignore relevant statistical information. For example, evidence showing just how rare throat cutting murders were in 19th C England, Why was this? Could it because so few people were psychologically capable of committing this type of crime? And surely they couldn't all have decided to descend on one small part of the East End of London in 1888 and start committing throat-cutting murders! Mind you, it is all rather undermining of your argument!

Hi John,

While I am of the opinion that JtR did indeed exist (though am seriously in doubt he killed Stride..) I was curious about exactly how common throat cutting was in London in that era, so spent several days entirely devoted to reading every entry regarding throat-cutting crimes listed in oldbaileyonline.com. It was a LOT of reading.

I have not yet (because real life gets in the way of it) compiled stats from that, but there were many, many instances of throat-cutting passing through the court during the period 1886-1891.

What I found was that a massive proportion of these crimes were domestic violence perpetrated in the home, by a male, against a female. Or a male, against another male. Some were a female against another female, but not many and those usually were very public fights.

In a handful of cases, the accused was clearly delusional. One man (found not guilty, mind you!) ran to police, all bloody, claiming he'd just stabbed two robbers in his home, in their arms and legs. The cops found his wife stabbed all over. She claimed she couldn't see who attacked her clearly, as it was dark, but she didn't think it was her husband, so he got off. Obviously, he stabbed her.

In a couple of other cases, the man was paranoid about his wife taking lovers into the house, though witnesses stated the wife was a good woman, and no men were ever seen coming or going.

Many women survived these attacks, some of them ghastly. The courts disn't seem to take these cases all that seriously, and punishment for slashing a wife's throat were as low as one month, no hard labour, if it was proven that she provoked the attack in some way.

I saw few attacks against prostitutes where knives were concerned. I was surprised by this. Maybe few were prosecuted (hey, if married women got a hard time in court, what hope does a hooker have?), so the numbers might not represent reality there.

JtR could very, very feasibly be on those records somewhere, have cut a throat or even multiple throats if he was good at assuming aliases, been caught for it - and sentenced to between 1 month and 5 years time for each one.

Even some of the crazier throat-cutters got only a few months in the asylum if the victim survived.

Anyway, it opened my eyes about the frequency of throat-cutting around London, in that era. Also, about the possibility that JtR MIGHT have done time at some point for attacking a woman, but the sentence might have quite negligible if the victim survived, or was believed to have provoked the attack. He might have even got off scot free if the court believed the prostitute had been trying to rob him.

What you do NOT see at all, even in the murder cases, is massive postmortem mutilation, except in the case of the Gill boy. Nor slashed abdomens or genitals, nothing like that.

One of these days, I'm going to compile stats from that site.

[c.d.]

I agree.


Might he not kill simply because he could, knowing that he could probably still get clean away, provided that he didn't waste further time by going on to mutilate?


We know that she did manage to hold on to them when she was killed. Cadaveric spasm seems as good an explanation as any.


Because they were upstairs singing and thus themselves making enough noise to drown out any others?

Hello Bridewell,

The B.S. man might have believed that he could get clean away after murdering Liz but that would mean that Schwartz and the Pipe Man could have given his description to the police. If he had simply left the scene after pushing Liz then that would be all he could be charged with.

Cadaveric spasm only accounts for her holding them in death. It does not account for them not being spilled when she was thrown to the ground, spreading her hands out to push herself back up or fighting off the B.S. man if she was somehow dragged.

Eagle and Mrs. Diemschitz made it a point to say that they believed they would have heard an argument despite the noise from the club because they had a door open. I have to take them at their word.

c.d.

[Batman]

Jtr didn't cut throats. Jtr slashed the whole neck deeply to the bone in most cases. Cut throats and near decapitation are different in terms of MO.

The fencing response is why she is holding her sweets.

[c.d.]

Doesn't the fencing response come about as a response to a hard blow to the head? That certainly doesn't seem to be what Schwartz described when Liz was thrown to the ground.

c.d.

[Batman]

If someone quickly accousted her then holding onto property tightly happens. Any upper body blow that sends enough shock through the CNS to disrupt the midbrain region at the top of the brain stem can cause it.

Strides wounds are not just another cut throat. This is a deep neck slashing.

Also Nichols displays evidence of bring punched out in the pathology report.

[Trevor Marriott]

All on holiday for October then?

Or out of the country !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Batman]

Or out of the country !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Yes I hear in 1888 for the month of October they had budget holiday packages for killers who could achieve similar MOs to Nichols.

Hence why none of them killed in October because of this.

The whole of October is an amazing time to take a vacation too. Best weather you can get outside of winters subzero temperatures for that time of year. Why get a tan when you can turn a cool shade of ice blue instead.