Different Killers

[Michael W Richards]

I`m sure most of us have just gone with the investigators of the day, and are still waiting for proof to the contrary.

Men trained to act subversively and clandestinely, men not used to open disclosure of facts, men who fabricated histories and storylines, men who actively financially supported the activities of revolutionaries, thieves and murderers. Men whose primary mandates had nothing at all to do with the investigation of day to day murders in London. Men who disagreed on who was killed by Jack, how many were killed by Jack, and whether or not he was ever caught, incarcerated or institutionalized. Nice bunch to put your faith in Jon.

cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Wrong type of knife. Oh sorry, I thought I'd already answered that: JtR was not intending to kill that night so he'd left home without his long bladed knife. However, upon encountering Stride the urge to kill overwhelmed him; she was therefore attacked on impulse. This, coupled with other factors I've mentioned, also explain the lack of mutilations.

So now this fictional serial killer has everyday knives as well as workday knives... like he has access to a plethora of knives and and simply chooses which to take depending on his "impulses" that day? Seriously?

John............you are aware that this was arguably one of the poorest urban places on the earth at the time, and possessions of any kind were minimal for most folks. Aside from which.....where in heavens name is there ANY evidence that a knife killer of that era used different knives depending on his moods?

Cheers

[John G]

So now this fictional serial killer has everyday knives as well as workday knives... like he has access to a plethora of knives and and simply chooses which to take depending on his "impulses" that day? Seriously?

John............you are aware that this was arguably one of the poorest urban places on the earth at the time, and possessions of any kind were minimal for most folks. Aside from which.....where in heavens name is there ANY evidence that a knife killer of that era used different knives depending on his moods?

Cheers

Hello Michael,

I see no reason why he couldn't have had more than one knife. We have no idea how well off the killer was and he could always have stolen a second knife.

I'm not saying he used different knives depending on his moods, I'm saying he didn't initially intend to kill that night. I don't see why he would be constantly carrying a long-bladed knife, and presumably if he was caught in possession of such a knife it might have caused problems. I see no reason why he might have only carried the long bladed knife on rare occasions, i.e. on nights he intended to commit murder. Ultimately, who knows what goes on in the mind of a serial killer.

[chrismasonic]

To John



I think some posters seem to believe there were three or four individuals in London who were psychologically capable of committing these types of exceptionally rare murders.

Cheers John

I certainly do...

[Harry D]

Yup. I find NONE of these convincing. However, IF either Polly or Annie had not been killed and we had only 4 slayings, the equation would change. See why?

Cheers.
LC

Of course not, Lynn. You think Jacob Isenschmid killed the first two, and since he was in the madhouse during the later murders, he couldn't possibly have killed Stride, Eddowes et al. Unfortunately you've fallen into the pitfall of most armchair detectives: taking a suspect and working backwards. Therefore you accentuate the differences between the first two murders and the rest, rather than focusing on the commonalities.

[chrismasonic]

Of course not, Lynn. You think Jacob Isenschmid killed the first two, and since he was in the madhouse during the later murders, he couldn't possibly have killed Stride, Eddowes et al. Unfortunately you've fallen into the pitfall of most armchair detectives: taking a suspect and working backwards. Therefore you accentuate the differences between the first two murders and the rest, rather than focusing on the commonalities.

Harry D...are you a detective?

[Batman]

So what was the going rate for October budget holidays for prostitute killers in London 1888 then?

Trips down to Brighton for 4 weeks for 1 and 13s 9d?

Maybe they all went together you know? Took some time out from killing for bit. Enjoy the fresh air.

[lynn cates]

vox

Hello Errata. Thanks.

Pity about the Aristotle. I prefer the Categories.

"We assume a serial killer because it's what we know. As 21st century Western cultured people, we see several murders in a short period of time, we see a serial killer. We all know serial killers. In many ways they are like the boogey man or demons. Sort of a go-to monster. A spray painted building makes us see dumb kids. A dead wife makes us see a killer husband. A plane flying into a building makes us see terrorists. That's our cultural priming at work."

Entirely agree. I prefer Kant's "structures of the mind." Frankly, we can see it no other way. (Umm, 21st c and culture? Oxymoron?)

As for the rest, thanks for the kind words. By the way, I don't wish to persuade anyone. That would force me to relinquish my status as "vox clamantis in deserto."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Descartes before the horse

Hello Harry. Thanks.

"Of course not, Lynn. You think Jacob Isenschmid killed the first two, and since he was in the madhouse during the later murders, he couldn't possibly have killed Stride, Eddowes et al. Unfortunately you've fallen into the pitfall of most armchair detectives: taking a suspect and working backwards."

Don't mean to contradict, but this is NOT so. Actually, I located Isenschmid simply because I was looking for those who were nicked before Kate died.

Long story.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Lets review The Canonical Five, the assumed series of killings by JtR;

-1 victim without any PM mutilation
-1 victim in her sleepwear in bed
-3 victims with organs taken away
-2 victims disembowelled, one in public venue
-2 victims with uterus or partial uterus taken
-1 victim with a kidney taken
-1 victim with a heart taken away
-2 victims actively prostituting (based on what is known, not surmised)
-4 victims over 40
-1 victim under 30
-3 victims killed on private property
-2 victims single for less than 2 weeks
-1 victim with private room
-2 victims without pre-arranged sleeping quarters (from what is known, not guessed)
-2 victims with a 10 day period
-2 victims within an hour on the same night
-5 victims with slit throats

I could go on with this sort of list but I think the point is clear, the only common thread among all 5 is that they had slit throats....the most common weapon in the area, and by far the most prevalent weapon cited in Old Bailey cases of the period.

In an area where known murderers lived, where a known prostitute killer was at large, in an area where more that 6 other Unsolved murders of women or attacks with knives took place, in an area populated by anarchists, terrorists and revolutionaries, and in an area where Inspector Abberline rose to fame arresting Fenians. Does anyone really believe that all the known killers and all the revolutionaries and all the terrorists and all the men who attacked women brandishing knives suddenly suspended their activities in late August of 1888 and stayed indoors until mid-November of 1888? Just so a lone madman could have the streets to himself?

Im sorry to put it this way,...but that's not only illogical, its ridiculous.

Cheers

Hello Michael,

You forgot to add that the women were of different heights and weights and ages and had different hair color. Plus they were killed in different locations and at different times. Plus I think some liked gin and others beer.

c.d.

[Batman]

There is a world of difference between a slit throat and a slashed neck. The throat is just one part of the neck!

JtR's victims had deep gashes, almost decapitated. Plus they where killed in the position they where found in. Lying down. Not upright. Not during an upright struggle. Not falling down. Not upside down. Horizontally flat on the ground. All the forensic evidence at the time points to this. Nothing. Not one drop of blood on their fronts or sprays higher than a few inches on a fence where ever discovered. It all pooled behind their heads.

Sorry, but gravity + blood pressure = not upright on planet Earth.

[Scott Nelson]

Sorry, but gravity + blood pressure = not upright on planet Earth.

Yes, agree. But Eddowes may somewhat problematic as far as the lack of bloodied fingerprints and footprints; Kelly is much more so.

[Jon Guy]

Men trained to act subversively and clandestinely, men not used to open disclosure of facts, men who fabricated histories and storylines, men who actively financially supported the activities of revolutionaries, thieves and murderers. Men whose primary mandates had nothing at all to do with the investigation of day to day murders in London. Men who disagreed on who was killed by Jack, how many were killed by Jack, and whether or not he was ever caught, incarcerated or institutionalized. Nice bunch to put your faith in Jon.

You`ll have to put names against the above, Michael.
I`ll then let you know if they`re part of the bunch I put my faith in.

[Jon Guy]

Lets review The Canonical Five, the assumed series of killings by JtR;

Again Michael, your obsession with the Canonical 5 rears it`s head again.
There are eleven unsolved murders in the police files, and other incidents of interest. You should have a look at them.

[Errata]

Harry D...are you a detective?

You know, there just aren't enough Dresden Files references on this board.