Arbitrary Selective Rejection and Acceptence of Coincidences

[Batman]

Unanimous Experts… your joking right?

Not one little bit. Nobody who has proposed the Smash and Grab hypothesis has been able to duplicate it even with a setup using a pig insides on a table, let alone with a human being. There are many Ripperologists who are also surgeons who have explained clearly why smash and grab is a mission impossible for the amateur. Have you read the thread on JtR and medical experience? There are even video links to various demonstrations. It should be obvious listening to these inviduals why smash and grab can't be done.

This is akin to the JFK conspiracy theory. Everyone who claims Oswald couldn't do it, haven't achieved the markmenship scores he did in the army.

Theres a whole world of difference between a surgical procedure and cutting organs out of a carcus. There is nothing to stop someone with extreme strength pushing there hands into a body cavity pulling out what ever they find and cutting it lose… He wasn't trying to preform surgery or keep the patient alive. He was smash and grab.

That is not what is demonstrated by the pathology reports at all. It isn't about great strength. It is about having the dexterity to remove the intenstines, go behind the stomach and remove the kidney with one sweep of the knife. Even then the kidney isn't just sitting there like a round ball to take out. What you are saying anyone can do here is something a surgeon will tell you, can't.

Then we have the removal of the womb. A womb removal isn't just a smash and grab. This was a savage version of a Hysterectomy. It was cut in ways to remove it mostly whole. The same goes for MJK who displays a savage version of a double mastectomy and her heart removed from under the rib cage by using the knife to cut the top of it from within and removing it downwards. Her right thigh displays what I would interpret as evidence of someone who has some experience with amputations.

The ripper probably used an actual amputation knife rather than any old dagger too.

Again, anyone who shadowed these procedures would be a candidate, definately a medical student, but not a butcher and not someone who is just trying to grab organs where they 'think' they might be found.

Oh... and all done mostly in the pitch dark too.

[Errata]

I think the delusional part was in Dahmer believing it could work on a sustainable level, which is what I think was going on there. So we'll have to agree to disagree on the mental illness issue with him at least, and that's okay with me.

It interests me that a great many of these 'big name' serial killers who've been studied exhibit many symptoms of 'social disorder' in their childhoods. rarely delusions though. I agree - most will claim mental illness as a cause and that just does not wash in court like it used to, thank goodness.

But yeah. I think mental illness can affect sociopaths too. It's something to think about, anyways.

It can work on a sustainable level. Mengele proved that. It's the "why would you want to do that to someone" part that sort of begs examination.

And I'm not saying he wasn't delusional. I'm just saying that his case proves what a fine line there can be between delusion and say, ambition. Delusions come from something. Not sleeping is a major cause of delusions. Dahmer's diagnosis may have come from the knowledge that his habits, his alcoholism, his drug use etc. was the source of that particular idea. Which would make it a delusion, even if it's in fact possible.

And mental illness does affect sociopaths. But mental illness has rules, just like the flu has rules. It's not a hole in the ground people can toss any abnormal behavior into. So if a sociopath displays specific symptoms in a certain order in a certain time frame, then yes. They have a mental illness. If they just do horrible things, that's not a mental illness.

[Errata]

Just to add, re Errata's post on Gacy - you'll note I did not include him as an example of 'delusional'. He was certainly not. Nowhere does his behaviour indicate it, at all. Gacy was a sociopathic rapist who enjoyed collecting the bodies so he could keep his victims close, get that sense of 'ownership' he clearly enjoyed.

Different kettle of fish from Dahmer, though.

Of course. I was just using Gacy as an example of one of the problems with trying to pigeonhole all serial killers as mentally ill. It creates false data if nothing else, but it is continuing a trend of mislabeling criminal behavior as something it's not, and demonizing the mentally ill.

[Jeff Leahy]

Not one little bit. Nobody who has proposed the Smash and Grab hypothesis has been able to duplicate it even with a setup using a pig insides on a table,

To my knowledge there has never been, apart from your imagination, an accurate reconstruction, and thank God for that. This is just hyperbole

let alone with a human being. There are many Ripperologists who are also surgeons who have explained clearly why smash and grab is a mission impossible for the amateur. Have you read the thread on JtR and medical experience? There are even video links to various demonstrations. It should be obvious listening to these inviduals why smash and grab can't be done.

Well I consulted Garth Jones. KNown as Sam Flynn on Casebook and pretty much the most knowledgeable ripperologist on the subject.

He disagrees with you. Its that simple.

This is akin to the JFK conspiracy theory. Everyone who claims Oswald couldn't do it, haven't achieved the markmenship scores he did in the army.

No it is not. They are two totally different situations with very little in common and demonstrates the weakness of your argument.

That is not what is demonstrated by the pathology reports at all. It isn't about great strength. It is about having the dexterity to remove the intenstines, go behind the stomach and remove the kidney with one sweep of the knife. Even then the kidney isn't just sitting there like a round ball to take out. What you are saying anyone can do here is something a surgeon will tell you, can't.

The responsibility of a surgeon is to keep his patient alive. All of Jacks victims were already dead apart from Martha Tabram.

Then we have the removal of the womb. A womb removal isn't just a smash and grab. This was a savage version of a Hysterectomy. It was cut in ways to remove it mostly whole. The same goes for MJK who displays a savage version of a double mastectomy and her heart removed from under the rib cage by using the knife to cut the top of it from within and removing it downwards. Her right thigh displays what I would interpret as evidence of someone who has some experience with amputations.

Jack was Psychotic. He just took stuff. The fact that it later transpired he took a Wonb, a kidney, an overt…is irrelevant…

He reached inside found something and cut it out. If he had only taken kidneys, you might have a point, but he didn't , he took what he found…RANDOM

The ripper probably used an actual amputation knife rather than any old dagger too.

Again, anyone who shadowed these procedures would be a candidate, definately a medical student, but not a butcher and not someone who is just trying to grab organs where they 'think' they might be found.

Oh... and all done mostly in the pitch dark too.

UMM…I can think of several words to reply to this… But I'll stick to what most experts have to say… There is no evidence that Jack required medical knowledge…NONE.

Obviously you can quote Dr Philips…however he was past his sell by date and 'of an older generation' at the time. Bond was perceived as a young expert and also created the worlds first profile…Bond may have limits but he is the best source we have..

You can argue this if you wish, but don't try and do it from an 'every expert thinks' angle…I've spent to long in the game going over this stuff and concluded, almost anyone could have preformed the mutilations with enough force and metal determination, which clearly the perpetrator had..its that simple

Yours Jeff

[Batman]

Did you visit the thread I mentioned and did you see Nick Warren doing the demonstration?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dQPAnRCI80

Just before 9 minutes in.

[Jeff Leahy]

Did you visit the thread I mentioned and did you see Nick Warren doing the demonstration?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dQPAnRCI80

Just before 9 minutes in.

I've not watched it through now, although I have done in the past.

The production company who made this program at one point contact me for actuate reconstructions but they went with a more , lets say populist approach.

Your not seriously saying that I should take the production company, who made this program seriously are you?

I mean get real, they could have had the real macoy, but choose populist Cra++++

Yours Jeff

PS Have you watched a serious documentary on this subject by Channel Five called Jack the Riper the Definitive Story?

[Batman]

Nick Warren is a surgeon and the editor of Ripperana.

http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media/book_reviews/periodicals/ripperana.html

I find your dismissal of this because it features in some production you feel is beneath you a little more than just an opinion that has no baring on Nick Warrens academic approach. If that's your best reason for dismissal then Warren is already walking circles around you.

[Jeff Leahy]

Nick Warren is a surgeon and the editor of Ripperana.

http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media/book_reviews/periodicals/ripperana.html

I find your dismissal of this because it features in some production you feel is beneath you a little more than just an opinion that has no baring on Nick Warrens academic approach. If that's your best reason for dismissal then Warren is already walking circles around you.

As I said, I didn't get involved with this production.

I am aware of its findings and don't take it particularly seriously.

I've been research this subject since the nineteen nineties and the Maybrick Diary. I first became interested following the Barlow and Watts broadcast.

And there is no serious evidence that Jack the ripper required medical knowledge of any kind. I'm also an experienced TV producer familiar with the use of expert opinion. If they claimed Jack required it, they were simply mistaken…

Do I believe I know more about this subject than the makers of this documentary..

Yes.

Yours Jeff

[Ausgirl]

Of course. I was just using Gacy as an example of one of the problems with trying to pigeonhole all serial killers as mentally ill. It creates false data if nothing else, but it is continuing a trend of mislabeling criminal behavior as something it's not, and demonizing the mentally ill.

Really, it's all about demonising sociopaths these days.. It seems the majority of public opinion has moved on from auto-assuming schizophrenia, mania and the like. I actually think that's probably closer to the truth of it, but at the same time there's a vast majority of sociopaths out there who've never killed anyone. I wonder if they feel demonised.

People with all kinds of mental states kill other people every single day, in droves.. but few are serial killers. Fewer are serial killers who are postmortem mutilators. It's highly aberrant, even among that minority, to slash a throat and then rummage about in innards, draping them here and there, cut a section of thigh out like its a beef roast, and take a few bits of gore home with, for whatever reason.

I unapologetically vacillate in pondering JtR as mentally ill, for that reason, and I don't think it's demonising mental illness to do so. Perhaps it is, to look at every suspect with a mental illness and think "oh there we go, of course he dunnit". But to me, it remains that JtR, by his actions, can be seen as a rare bird who was clearly 'not right', whatever the cause.

You'd think it'd be hard to hide that, but as Kemper, Dahmer and Berkowitz all have proved, not impossible. All of these men were caught almost by accident, it should be remembered - their capture didn't come as the progressive fruit of investigation but by via chance discovery of small mistakes on their part. Any of them could be JtR-level unsolveds to this day had they abruptly quit killing for any reason prior to that mistake. And in Gacy's case, they didn't even believe there *was* a serial killer, until shortly before they dug up his basement.

Ed Gein, the only true post-mortem mutilator among them, was caught fairly swiftly once he started killing because unlike these others, he wasn't very smart. But he got along alright, to that point. ETA: and might actually be far closer in nature to JtR than any other serial killer (though Gein was technically not one, I think it's not a stretch to assume he'd have killed again if not stopped..)

So, IMO, Jack certainly could handle a job, run a business, live the majority of his life appearing to be just another member of the community. Not very easily, perhaps. But precedent says it's very possible.

Sorry, just to clarify, I'm more waffling on about the question of whether Kosminski (being apparently prone to psychosis) might be able to run a business -and- be Jack the Ripper, than waffling directly at you, E.

[Batman]

As I said, I didn't get involved with this production.

I am aware of its findings and don't take it particularly seriously.

I've been research this subject since the nineteen nineties and the Maybrick Diary. I first became interested following the Barlow and Watts broadcast.

And there is no serious evidence that Jack the ripper required medical knowledge of any kind. I'm also an experienced TV producer familiar with the use of expert opinion. If they claimed Jack required it, they were simply mistaken…

Do I believe I know more about this subject than the makers of this documentary..

Yes.

Yours Jeff

Jeff you do realize a Producer isn't an academic scientific position on this at all? Nick Warren is the expert here. He is a surgeon and look at those credentials as editor of the first and original Ripper magazine. I can also provide several other surgeons who will support him and not only that but your view is not the one shared by the best known authors on this topic because they can provide the same sources as I shall if needed.

Whose medical opinion are you going along with exactly here? What's their credentials?

Btw I'm a scientist, a biologist, who also trained as a professional editor for TV in my younger years so I am well clued into this as much as anyone else is here.

[GUT]

Jeff you do realize a Producer isn't an academic scientific position on this at all? Nick Warren is the expert here. He is a surgeon and look at those credentials as editor of the first and original Ripper magazine. I can also provide several other surgeons who will support him and not only that but your view is not the one shared by the best known authors on this topic because they can provide the same sources as I shall if needed.

Whose medical opinion are you going along with exactly here? What's their credentials?

Btw I'm a scientist, a biologist, who also trained as a professional editor for TV in my younger years so I am well clued into this as much as anyone else is here.

See Jeff he trained as an editor, so that trumps all your years of experience. and makes him "(as) well clued into this as much as anyone else is here"

[Ausgirl]

You're all a lot more clued in than me!

Plus, I don't have any kind of penis to swing. No horse in this race.

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff you do realize a Producer isn't an academic scientific position on this at all? Nick Warren is the expert here. He is a surgeon and look at those credentials as editor of the first and original Ripper magazine. I can also provide several other surgeons who will support him and not only that but your view is not the one shared by the best known authors on this topic because they can provide the same sources as I shall if needed.

Whose medical opinion are you going along with exactly here? What's their credentials?

Btw I'm a scientist, a biologist, who also trained as a professional editor for TV in my younger years so I am well clued into this as much as anyone else is here.

THen I suggest you buy a copy of Jack the Ripper The Definitive Story.

However there is no evidence Jack required Medical knowledge, and as far as I'm aware there is no research to support such an idea. The documentary you quote is far from a serious investigation on the subject.

I'll simply go with Gareth Jones on this one. We'll have to 'Begg' to differ

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

See Jeff he trained as an editor, [/I]

Actually I did degrees in Graphic, photography and Broadcasting

But yes I know a little about editing. I also spend many years researching, re-constructing and making programs on various serial killers in the UK.

I will also be giving a lecture of the coroners reports from the Hammersmith Nude murders on March the 7th in London, if anyone is interested?

Yours Jeff

[Batman]

Jeff I have likely seen the documentary.

Can you post a link to your reference here please? I want to read the credentials and critic. As simple as that request is I hope you don't overlook it.

If a medical professional has refuted Warren I would also like to see that.

I think today any Ripperologists who deny JtR had medical skill would have to run a gauntlet of surgeons who say the opposite.

I have named a very good one and can supply more if needed.

Just FYI I find it odd you would consider a demonstration on a model of your smash and grab hypothesis something strange. I would think any documentary which was serious about this smash and grab claim could at least demonstrate it somehow rather than just leaving it to people's imagination.

At least Nick Warren was capable of his demonstration.

I have also just realized how in conflict the medical skill evidence is with Kozminski. Its a strike against Kozminski if he does or you need evidence of how he got this skill.