Did Mary know her killer?

[The Good Michael]

Incidentally, I am not convinced she ran up so much debt. I suspect McCarthy saw an opportunity to make some money by exaggerating, or even inventing a debt, then there was always a chance Barnett or more likely some family member would step forward to settle it.

I believe Kelly was sharing her earnings with McCarthy. I believe her youthfulness was enough for her to be allowed to live there without having rent money for at least part of the time, because she would have customers. If she was sharing the room with prostitutes, I'm fairly sure she had customers there, and why not? She may have felt safer taking a John back to her own place, knowing she wouldn't have to be walking back from some alley or gate alone. It could be that McCarthy being owed money was a story so he could say, "Well it isn't my fault that someone could open the latch through a window and get in." Because he would have been responsible for the security of his tenants to some extent.

Mike

[RockySullivan]

What a really interesting link Rocky, thanks for posting it.

Of course the pipe allegedly found in Mary's room may have come from anyone, as women too smoked clay pipes in those days. Nevertheless, it's disappointing if the doctor, presumably Bond, smashed it. The stem probably broke off but the tobacco in the pipe bowl could still presumably have been traced, if it hadn't all been smoked down to a sticky tar.

Thanks Rosella, I found it interesting. I don't see any reason a Dr. would smash a pipe, but it also seems strange for the ripper to leave a pipe behind, unless it was an accident or a taunt. Tracing the tobacco might prove a difficult task. I'm not sure how they'd be able to pinpoint the blend to a specific tobacconist unless it was somewhat unique. I think by the 1880s some companies may have already been mass producing tobacco.

[Rosella]

I believe Kelly was sharing her earnings with McCarthy. I believe her youthfulness was enough for her to be allowed to live there without having rent money for at least part of the time, because she would have customers. If she was sharing the room with prostitutes, I'm fairly sure she had customers there, and why not? She may have felt safer taking a John back to her own place, knowing she wouldn't have to be walking back from some alley or gate alone. It could be that McCarthy being owed money was a story so he could say, "Well it isn't my fault that someone could open the latch through a window and get in." Because he would have been responsible for the security of his tenants to some extent.

Mike

Sharing her earnings as well as paying her rent, do you mean? Would that be worth it to McCarthy, though? He could get 4s or more for the room anyway, and how much would Mary be charging her customers? Even though she was quite young and attractive you wouldnt think she'd get much more than 6d a time. She had to eat as well. If he got two shillings a week from her he would be lucky! I do think Mary was in some arrears to McCarthy, but not as much as he claimed.

[The Good Michael]

Sharing her earnings as well as paying her rent, do you mean? Would that be worth it to McCarthy, though? He could get 4s or more for the room anyway, and how much would Mary be charging her customers? Even though she was quite young and attractive you wouldnt think she'd get much more than 6d a time. She had to eat as well. If he got two shillings a week from her he would be lucky! I do think Mary was in some arrears to McCarthy, but not as much as he claimed.

Right, I'm talking about sharing her earnings and perhaps paying a bit off the debt. The idea of not having either of her windows fixed after a month or more, and not wanting to be blamed for not taking care of such measures, may have prompted McCarthy to lie to the police. Also, there may have been a connection to the McCarthy family of Breezer's Hill and MJK may have been thought "good for it".

Mike

Mike

[RockySullivan]

If McCarthy was lying about the rent what reason would Bowyer have for discovering Kelly

[Penhalion]

McCarty wouldn't have wanted anyone to know if he was getting a kickback from MJK's activities because earning money via prostitution was very illegal and could have resulted in him loosing not only money and property but a good deal of 'face' in the community. Would there have been an element of hypocrisy in other's shunning him for taking money from a sex worker? Sure, but appearances were important for those struggling to better themselves.

Do I think McCarthy was taking money from MJK in lieu of rent? I don't know- possible but unproven. If he needed an excuse for checking up on her, surely being one or two weeks in arrears would be justification enough. Why say it was 6 weeks or more?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Mike

I believe Kelly was sharing her earnings with McCarthy. I believe her youthfulness was enough for her to be allowed to live there without having rent money for at least part of the time, because she would have customers. If she was sharing the room with prostitutes, I'm fairly sure she had customers there, and why not? She may have felt safer taking a John back to her own place, knowing she wouldn't have to be walking back from some alley or gate alone. It could be that McCarthy being owed money was a story so he could say, "Well it isn't my fault that someone could open the latch through a window and get in." Because he would have been responsible for the security of his tenants to some extent.

I've the same sort of suspicious mind you have, and really do entertain serious doubts regarding the relationship between McCarthy and Kelly...it had occurred to me that Kelly was on a no-rent (or minimal rent) but share-the-dues kind of arrangement...perhaps with McCarthy's shop as a kind of go-between venue?

The fact she'd allegedly shared her room (albeit briefly) with another prostitute speaks to me that McCarthy was complicit in some fashion...the man has her in a room with a separate entrance directly overlooked by the back window of his chandlers storeroom for goodness sake, so he knew what was going on...

Was Prater in the same situation? The witness-statements could lead you to think that way...on the night in question, when Prater spent so much time in the shop, was she actually sorting out her finances with her pimp? Was she collecting assignments?

Were Bowyer's visits concerned more with collecting his share rather than his rent? Well ok, the evidence seems to suggest McCarthy could've got about four bob a week for the room as it stood...Let's suppose Mary could get a tanner (6d) a time as younger bait, and could manage say just half a dozen clients a day on six days a week (be charitable and give her the sabbath off)...thats 18/- a week of which McCarthy would get at least half - nine bob a week...I suspect he'd take far more than half...three quarters at least... so at least 13/6...I think Bowyer would visit at least daily to ensure his master got his due...(and incidentally I think the take was seven days and it was far more than I've posited)

OK this is nothing new...others have speculated the same way...but where does this leave Barnett...IIRC allegedly per McCarthy, (and this may need to be taken with a pinch of salt), it was Barnett who originally took out the rental in the name of "Mr Kelly"...was he simply cocking a deaf'un from the start?

Or was his interest in MJK genuine at the beginning, and did an arrangement between MJK and McCarthey only arise after their relationship became rocky? Or was Barnett an immature romantic trapped in a very uncomfortable relationship?

Who knows...but I do think there is reason to view the alleged Landlord-Tenant relationship with some doubt...

All the best

Dave

[The Good Michael]

If McCarthy was lying about the rent what reason would Bowyer have for discovering Kelly

Just because McCarthy may have been lying about the amount owed, doesn't mean money collection wasn't part of Bowyer's routine. I suspect McCarthy knew exactly what was going on with Kelly's prostitution and when she had customers.

Mike

[Wickerman]

If McCarthy was lying about the rent what reason would Bowyer have for discovering Kelly

Collecting this weeks rent.

[GUT]

Just because McCarthy may have been lying about the amount owed, doesn't mean money collection wasn't part of Bowyer's routine. I suspect McCarthy knew exactly what was going on with Kelly's prostitution and when she had customers.

Mike

And if so, would have had "His Man" around there next day to get a bit of the arrears.

[Spider]

But from what we know of the ripper, he only kills women, unfortunates where he has the upper hand. Would a coward like this really attack a man if trapped in a room ? McCarthy let's Kelly go for six weeks and only comes to collect the rent the exact morning she's been murdered....what an unlucky guy

McCarthy could have come for the rent regularly EVERY Sunday morning couldn't he?

[Abby Normal]

why would McCarthy lie about her owing rent?

Plus its somewhat corroborated by the fact that she recently broke up with out of work Barnett who couldn't give her money?

[The Good Michael]

McCarthy could have come for the rent regularly EVERY Sunday morning couldn't he?

Absolutely and he could have sent Bowyer round every morning after Kelly had customers.

Mike

[The Good Michael]

I've the same sort of suspicious mind you have, and really do entertain serious doubts regarding the relationship between McCarthy and Kelly...it had occurred to me that Kelly was on a no-rent (or minimal rent) but share-the-dues kind of arrangement...perhaps with McCarthy's shop as a kind of go-between venue?

The fact she'd allegedly shared her room (albeit briefly) with another prostitute speaks to me that McCarthy was complicit in some fashion...the man has her in a room with a separate entrance directly overlooked by the back window of his chandlers storeroom for goodness sake, so he knew what was going on...

In the book: The Worst Street in London, Fiona talks about how many...most of these doss houses on Dorset had live-in prostitutes as just another way to take every penny they could from the renters. McCarthy was a slum lord and with partners owned much more than the Miller's Court property. The real question is, why would McCarthy NOT encourage prostitution if he made money off it?

Mike

[Tecs]

Regarding the cry of "oh, murder".

Back in the 90s I was close friends with an old lady who lived near me. One day she was visiting and noticed my little collection of Ripper books.

She the "confessed" to me that she had worked as a prostitute in the East End in the 1930s and 40s.

She told me how she often had clients who wanted to "play ripper". Basically they would say a lot of things like "I am gonna rip you good, you whore", in a bad "Victorian cockney" voice, and she would dutifully reply "Oh, murder, oh you fiend". Then the punter would "rape" her and go back to his normal life.

She said that many of her clients had similar fantasies and asking her to pretend she was being raped or murdered was surprisingly common.

Is it possible that Kelly said "oh, murder" to please her client during their coupling? This could also be why there are claims that such cries were common around the area.

Obviously the Ripper was causing much fear at the time, and surely all prostitutes (and indeed most of the women in the area!) must have been very on-edge and aware of the potential danger. But the street-walkers had no choice but to walk the streets anyway. Whether they would have been prepared to play along with rape and murder fantasies during the height of the Ripper scare is perhaps unlikely. I don't know if such exchanges were even part of the Victorian prostitutes repertoire, especially as the majority would have had to perform whatever was required as quickly as possible.

Hi Azarna.

I don't think anybody else has commented on this, so I'll just say one thing.

Blimey!

What a sad reflection on some men.
And a reminder that prostitutes provide a service to society. If these sad weirdos get enough kicks out of pretending and don't attack other women then I suppose we should thank them for making the streets safer for all of our women.

regards,