The Missing Evidence - New Ripper Documentary

[Chris]

I was under the impression what the Lechmere brigade were arguing is that if Lechmere left home when he said he did, than Paul would have seen him earlier than Bucks Row at the junction of Foster Street and Bath Street. The fact that they said he didn't, meant he had left home earlier than he said he did so he would have more time to find and murder Nichols.

As the discrepancy of distances is only equivalent to 10 seconds or so, I can't believe that even they would argue that.

[Rob Clack]

As the discrepancy of distances is only equivalent to 10 seconds or so, I can't believe that even they would argue that.

I would.

[Abby Normal]

Touché



"if Cross/Lechmere was only 40 yards ahead of Paul after he stopped to look at the body"

If Charles Lechmere murdered Mary Ann Nichols, then he never "stopped to look at the body", as he would have been in situ with the body, when Robert Paul happened along.

I would contend therefore that the time he left home is very relevant.

I agree. especially if he ran into Nichols in Bucks row it would only take several minutes to engage her, strangle her and cut her.

I personally think the argument of who should of seen who while walking(before they meet in bucks row) is kind of irrelevant, because we have no idea how fast each were walking (although I imagine both would probably be walking at a brisk pace), how straight, if they stopped momentarily (to tie a shoe, take a leak,) etc.

I think the main thing is to try and come up with why there could be up to approx. 18 minutes of what the heck was lech doing time.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Cross: "Just then [whilst by Nichols' body] they heard a policeman coming."

Coming suggests approaching.

Was this the policeman Cross didn't see: the same policeman who didn't see Cross?

Regards,

Simon

[Chris]

I personally think the argument of who should of seen who while walking(before they meet in bucks row) is kind of irrelevant, because we have no idea how fast each were walking (although I imagine both would probably be walking at a brisk pace), how straight, if they stopped momentarily (to tie a shoe, take a leak,) etc.

Exactly. It's an argument that was presented quite prominently in the documentary, but it fails because of the kind of uncertainties you mention (particularly as the difference beteeen 40 yards and 50-58 yards only amounts to 5 or 10 seconds).

I think the main thing is to try and come up with why there could be up to approx. 18 minutes of what the heck was lech doing time.

The trouble with that kind of argument is that it's very sensitive to the accuracy of the times given. An apparent discrepancy of 8 minutes can easily vanish if the times are accurate only to within a few minutes.

[Chris]

Coming suggests approaching.

Good luck with persuading the people who insisted "met" could mean "followed"!

[Abby Normal]

Exactly. It's an argument that was presented quite prominently in the documentary, but it fails because of the kind of uncertainties you mention (particularly as the difference beteeen 40 yards and 50-58 yards only amounts to 5 or 10 seconds).



The trouble with that kind of argument is that it's very sensitive to the accuracy of the times given. An apparent discrepancy of 8 minutes can easily vanish if the times are accurate only to within a few minutes.

I mainly agree-yet apparently the time frame between when lech stops and sees the body and Paul arrives is so thin. Its only seconds so a discrepancy of minutes could be significant.

[moonbegger]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Thanks, Moon.

You lost me with that "good opportunity to ditch the knife". When did that happen?

The best,
Fisherman

Probably right about here ..

Quote:
I was obliged to be punctual at my work, so I went on and told the other man I would send the first policeman I saw.

He clearly makes the first move to exit the scene .. for my mind , ample opportunity to either toss it over the bridge into the bushes below , or simply place it in the dark gloom . Either option is better than the risk of getting caught red handed with it .

moonbegger

[Lechmere]

Tr… I mean Robert’s map brings into focus the implausibility that Paul would not have noticed Lechmere long before he got to where Nichols lay, if Lechmere was telling the truth.

If Paul was 30-40 yards behind Lechmere when Lechmere was in the middle of the road adjacent to Brown’s Stable Yard (and there is no indication in his description that Lechmere hesitated for more than a split second) then where would Lechmere have been (presuming he was telling the truth) when Paul came out of his front door?

The point is, should Paul have seen or heard Lechmere and vice versa prior to Brown’s Stable Yard?

We can work this out quite easily with a range of speeds.
From a standing start, after shutting (ever so quietly) his front door, it would have taken Paul quite a few paces to get into his stride – but let’s ignore that. I know Robert doesn’t like this suggestion – it is desperate apparently – a bit like suggesting Lechmere approached Brown’s Stable Yard door at an oblique angel to stretch a few extra inches for the ‘middle of the road’ from Nichols’ prone body. But let’s not get distracted by that argument.

From leaving his home until he was seen by Lechmere Paul covered:
The 38 yards down Foster Street
Add 5 yards for cornering into Bath Street
50 yards down Bath Street
15 yards across Brady Street and then
either 82 or 92 yards up Bucks Row – take an average 87.
In total Paul walked 195 yards give or take.

If they were walking at the same pace then Lechmere would have also covered 195 yards from when Paul emerged from his front door.
Measuring back from the middle of the road by Browns’s Sable Yard:
Middle of road to pavement 2 yards
Bucks Row 122 yards
15 yards across Brady Street
50 yards down Bath Street
That makes 189 yards.
Add an extra 6 yards and he was crossing the end of Foster Street as Paul came out of his house.

As Paul turned into Bath Street, Lechmere would have been 13 yards from the end of Bath Street.
When Paul turned into Bucks Row he would have walked for 85 yards behind Lechmere without noticing him.
The 13 yards in Bath Street is quite a margin of error in a 195 yard journey. Unless Paul was running it seems to me that he must have been in Bath Street at the same time as Lechmere. Unless Lechmere was never there of course.

By the same token he was walking behind Lechmere for about 85 yards down Bucks Row before noticing him.
Even if you stretch this by using the full 40 yard estimate it would still be 80 yards.
If you have Paul walking quickly (and so missing Lechmere in Bath Street) he would have been catching Lechmere up making the time spent behind Lechmere in Buck Row equally lengthy.

However this is manipulated it is most odd that Paul was not aware that Lechmere was in front of him until he noticed him in the middle of the road (or where the body was – take you pick).
And remember Neil heard Thane walk past Brady Street – that was over 122 yards away (I presume Thane was on the eastern side of Brady Street but it makes little difference).

This is not related to or dependent on the timings by the way.

[Rob Clack]

"The point is, should Paul have seen or heard Lechmere and vice versa prior to Brown’s Stable Yard?"


No.

[Lechmere]

His ear holes were blocked with a superabundance of wax.

[Rob Clack]

How much noise was being made by the brewery?

[Chris]

The 13 yards in Bath Street is quite a margin of error in a 195 yard journey. Unless Paul was running it seems to me that he must have been in Bath Street at the same time as Lechmere.

Well, I don't think your figures are correct in general, but to make up 13 yards in a 195 yard journey you need to walk only 7% faster - or about a quarter of a mile per hour faster, relative to a brisk walk. Say 3.5 mph rather than 3.25 mph. Nothing like running.

[Abby Normal]

Question-
when does lech say he was late for work? does he say he was late in relation to when he first left his house? or does he say it first when with Paul in Bucks row?

[Fisherman]

If you have Paul walking quickly (and so missing Lechmere in Bath Street) he would have been catching Lechmere up making the time spent behind Lechmere in Buck Row equally lengthy.

One point that needs to be made here is that the faster we have Paul moving, the smaller the chance that Lechmere would not have heard him. If Paul walked at a much quicker space, the sounds of the footfalls could not cover each other.

No matter how we look at it, Lechmere should have heard Paul and paul should have heard Lechmere.

The best,
Fisherman