Lets get Lechmere off the hook!

[Simon Owen]

Another point I feel that needs making is that Dr Llewellyn estimated the time of Nichol's death to be about 3.30am. If Lechmere killed Nichols at 3.30am and Paul found him standing by the body at 3.46am what had Lechmere been doing for the intervening 15-16 minutes ? The injuries to Nichols' corpse would have only taken a few minutes to perform.

[The Good Michael]

I can't remember why Lechmere is a better suspect than Paul. If Paul killed Nichols, left to get rid of the knife and then proceeded down the same route playing dumb, no one would think he had done it.

Mike

[RockySullivan]

I can't remember why Lechmere is a better suspect than Paul. If Paul killed Nichols, left to get rid of the knife and then proceeded down the same route playing dumb, no one would think he had done it.

Mike

Right well the one big thing against Lexhmere is lying to mizen twice. But paul is also a carman who took a similar route to work as Lexhmere no? Paul worked on hanbury st so that is equal to or greater than Lexhmeres mother living at Pinchin ain't it?

[The Good Michael]

Right well the one big thing against Lexhmere is lying to mizen twice. But paul is also a carman who took a similar route to work as Lexhmere no? Paul worked on hanbury st so that is equal to or greater than Lexhmeres mother living at Pinchin ain't it?

I don't see that Cross lied to Mizen. You mean about a policeman needing him in Buck's row? I think that was miscommunication and misunderstanding. There would be no reason to lie. It would be sufficient to say that there was no policeman in Buck's Row so they sought one out on the way to work. And maybe 'no policeman/constable' was misunderstood.

Mike

[RockySullivan]

I don't see that Cross lied to Mizen. You mean about a policeman needing him in Buck's row? I think that was miscommunication and misunderstanding. There would be no reason to lie. It would be sufficient to say that there was no policeman in Buck's Row so they sought one out on the way to work. And maybe 'no policeman/constable' was misunderstood.

Mike

I thought cross told mizen there was a policemen with the body?

[Steve S]

Nearly everything covered..I'll just add I have problems with Hanbury street especially......The consensus is for a 0500+ murder time...AND do people vary their walk to work at 0330.....Hanbury OR Old Montague I would have thought?

[GUT]

I thought cross told mizen there was a policemen with the body?

Well that's what Mizen said, Cross denied it.

[caz]

Caz (been hiding lately)
He may have felt it necessary to give the right time for leaving home because a neighbour saw him. Who knows? But the fact is the timings as given do allow a time gap – no matter whose timings you take and he was not picked up on it.

Yeah, sorry, I was 'hiding' from you and Fishy - if that's the same thing as moving house and dealing with the estate of a deceased family member.

Indeed, who knows why Lechmere would have volunteered himself to the police and the inquest; volunteered his real middle name, Allen; and volunteered the actual time he left home, if he was actively trying to hide his involvement in the murder.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

I see a weakness in the case against Lechmere in the timing of events, something which is supposed to be a point in favour of him being the murderer.

In the documentary, it is stated that Paul met Lechmere at the scene of the crime at 3:46am. This is based on the fact that Paul gave evidence at the inquest that he left his home in Foster Street at "about quarter to 4". Based on Lechmere leaving his home at 3:30am and taking seven minutes to arrive in Buck's Row, at 3:37am, it is stated in the documentary that: "According to Paul's evidence, Lechmere found the body some 16 minutes after he claimed he left home". Given that Paul is shown entering Buck's Row at 3:45, I don't entirely understand why this then transmutes into 3:46 but I assume the point is that it took him 60 seconds to walk down Buck's Row to reach Lechmere. Consequently it is stated that there is a "9 minute gap" between the time Lechmere should have reached the body (3:37) and Paul's arrival (3:46). This is described as "a major gap in Lechmere's timings".

The entire argument is based on the assumption that Paul, being in a hurry to get to work, would have been keenly aware of the time. However, I would like to suggest that the person who would have been most aware of the exact time that morning was PC Mizen because he was waking people up. I don't suppose anyone who asked to be woken up at 3:45am would have appreciated being woken up any earlier. Mizen said at the inquest that he was approached by the two men at or about "a quarter to four". He then admitted that, having been told about the body in Buck's Row, he "finished knocking up one person". For me, this means that far from Paul arriving in Buck's Row at 3:45, this was actually the time that he and Lechmere spoke to Mizen in Hanbury Street.

While I appreciate that Lechmere only supposedly needs two minutes to murder Nichols according to the documentary, this change in timings rather undermines the whole point about the "major gap". Indeed, if Lechmere left his house at 3:30am, took seven minutes to walk to Buck's Row (3:37am), then it took a further minute for Paul to walk down Buck's Row (3:38am), then, say, three minutes for them to speak and look at the body and decide what to do (3:41am), then three minutes for them to locate a constable and explain what they had seen (3:44am) - then for Mizen to knock up (3:45am) before proceeding to Buck's Row - all the timings are pretty much accounted for and Lechmere had no time to murder Nichols. But even that assumes Lechmere left his house at exactly 3:30am as opposed to, say, 3:33am which most people would call 3:30.

Brilliant post, David! Far too much was made of this alleged 9 minute murder window.

Love,

Caz
X

[The Good Michael]

I thought cross told mizen there was a policemen with the body?

Mizen said (not in these exact words) that he was told he was wanted by a policeman in Buck's Row. I think he was mistaken. Mizen may have asked them why they left the body, and Paul or Cross may have said something like: for want of a policeman in Buck's Row. This would have given Mizen the OK to release them (though still stupid) and they would have felt like they'd done their job and it was all a mishearing.

Mike

[Fisherman]

Mizen said (not in these exact words) that he was told he was wanted by a policeman in Buck's Row. I think he was mistaken. Mizen may have asked them why they left the body, and Paul or Cross may have said something like: for want of a policeman in Buck's Row. This would have given Mizen the OK to release them (though still stupid) and they would have felt like they'd done their job and it was all a mishearing.

Mike

The why is this conversation not mentioned? Why does not Mizen tell the inquest that he asked them why they left the body, and why does he not point out that this was why?

Why do neither Lechmere and/or Paul say that they were asked about this by Mizen?

Itīs conjecture, Mike, nothing else.

Mizen says that the carman simply told him that another PC was awaiting him, but he says nothing about having asked why they left the scene.

You presume that Mizen asked and that he misinterpreted the answer. But if Lechmere specifically pointed out to Mizen that he had left the scene because there was not any PC there, then why does he not say that this was what happened when the juryman asks him if he had told Mizen of another PC?

I find it a very laboriuos suggestion, with nothing at all to promote it. And as I said, it is totally conjecture.

Why do you find it hard to believe that Mizen told the truth? Whereīs your problem with that? Is it because it tells us that Lechmere lied, and you donīt wanīt him lying? Because it goes a long way to point him out as the killer? Is that it? Is that why you conjure up a scenario to replace the one we have evidence about in Mizenīs wording?

The best,
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

The why is this conversation not mentioned? Why does not Mizen tell the inquest that he asked them why they left the body, and why does he not point out that this was why?

Why do neither Lechmere and/or Paul say that they were asked about this by Mizen?

Itīs conjecture, Mike, nothing else.

Mizen says that the carman simply told him that another PC was awaiting him, but he says nothing about having asked why they left the scene.

You presume that Mizen asked and that he misinterpreted the answer. But if Lechmere specifically pointed out to Mizen that he had left the scene because there was not any PC there, then why does he not say that this was what happened when the juryman asks him if he had told Mizen of another PC?

I find it a very laboriuos suggestion, with nothing at all to promote it. And as I said, it is totally conjecture.

Why do you find it hard to believe that Mizen told the truth? Whereīs your problem with that? Is it because it tells us that Lechmere lied, and you donīt wanīt him lying? Because it goes a long way to point him out as the killer? Is that it? Is that why you conjure up a scenario to replace the one we have evidence about in Mizenīs wording?

No good cop would have let these two guys go off to work regardless. He would have ordered them to take him to the scene. So, we have a cop who isn't so bright, at least at that moment, in Mizen, yet it has to be Cross that lied? If there's a liar it is only 1/3 of a chance it was Cross. I could care less who lied, but I suggest it was a misunderstanding, not for any reason, but to add to the thread you started.

Mike

[caz]

I find it a bit of a coincidence that Lechmere is meant to have invented a copper at the scene then hey presto Mizen finds a real copper at the scene. Much more likely in my view that Mizen projected this fact - by accident or design - on to what he was being told while occupied with knocking up. Neatens up and makes sense of the whole thing from his point of view. He finds PC Neil with Nichols and fancies that was what Lechmere was trying to tell him.

Love,

Caz
X

[Colin Roberts]

Indeed, who knows why Lechmere would have volunteered himself to the police and the inquest; volunteered his real middle name, Allen; and volunteered the actual time he left home, if he was actively trying to hide his involvement in the murder.

"who knows why Lechmere would have volunteered … his real middle name, Allen;"

Or for that matter, his real first name, his real address and his real place of employment.

Some of us are much better liars than others, Caz, and hindsight is 20/20.

I've seen you make similar arguments - logically so - to the effect that some of us are more rational graffiti composers than others, … and of course that hindsight is 20/20 or better yet, 20/10.

"who knows why Lechmere would have volunteered … the actual time he left home,"

We don't know the actual time he left home. We obviously think we do, but we don't.

Had he actually left 22 Doveton Street at 2:45AM - as opposed to the assumed 3:45AM, so as to be able to prowl the streets of Whitechapel for an hour or two before reporting to Pickford's, would his family have known the difference?

Had he actually been due at Pickford's at 5:00AM - as opposed to the presumed 4:00 - 4:30AM time frame, would his colleagues have known the difference?

We know NOTHING of Lechmere's weekly/daily/hourly schedule.

We know NOTHING of his time commitments on the mornings of 7 August, 8 September, 30 September and 9 November, 1888: Nothing!

And we do not know everything that there is to know regarding his time commitments on the morning of 31 August, 1888.

Am I at all inclined to believe that Charles Lechmere murdered Mary Ann Nichols, or any of the other presumed victims of 'Jack the Ripper'? No, I am not!

But do I perceive a remote possibility that he did so? Yes, I most certainly do!

Unlike Ed and Christer, however, I would not throw all of my eggs into a single scenario basket, and proclaim that he did what he allegedly did in some very specific manner, for some very specific reason.

There are countless hypothetical scenarios that afford Lechmere the opportunity to have committed these murders; but of course we don't know which ones - if any - coincide with reality.

[The Good Michael]

I find it a bit of a coincidence that Lechmere is meant to have invented a copper at the scene then hey presto Mizen finds a real copper at the scene. Much more likely in my view that Mizen projected this fact - by accident or design - on to what he was being told while occupied with knocking up. Neatens up and makes sense of the whole thing from his point of view. He finds PC Neil with Nichols and fancies that was what Lechmere was trying to tell him.

Another possibility for sure. Mizen needed to at least have something to say other than, "Uh...I let Cross and Paul go to work and assumed someone was dead." Cross wouldn't lie and then trust that Paul wouldn't be asked any questions about it. They weren't even acquaintances before this.

Mike