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  • So in the space of a few weeks the Ripper went from a wild stab-happy killer to a calculated slasher?

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    • Originally posted by Harry D View Post
      So in the space of a few weeks the Ripper went from a wild stab-happy killer to a calculated slasher?
      That's what I used to think. It didn't seem logical.

      Yours truly,

      Tom Wescott

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Harry D View Post
        So in the space of a few weeks the Ripper went from a wild stab-happy killer to a calculated slasher?
        Well no...
        Most serial killers don't start off with a successful kill let alone a mature MO.

        I think its more likely in the space of a several months, starting with perhaps, Millwood and/or Wilson, he went from stabbing then to strangling first to incapacitate and stabbing with Tabram then to strangling and slashing with Nichols...and on.
        "Is all that we see or seem
        but a dream within a dream?"

        -Edgar Allan Poe


        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

        -Frederick G. Abberline

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Harry D View Post
          But the signatures aren't the same, Bridewell. Tabram's murder was a frenzied one, as attested to by the repeated stabbings which missed vital organs, whereas the proceeding murders would show a clean dispatch of the victim and a deliberate focus on the abdominal area and viscera. We are therefore left with the conclusion that they were committed by different beasts.
          Hi Harry
          The sigs were similar enough. Abdomen and private parts targeted with knife.

          Signatures evolve.
          "Is all that we see or seem
          but a dream within a dream?"

          -Edgar Allan Poe


          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

          -Frederick G. Abberline

          Comment


          • Tabram was not a frenzy kill.

            Yours truly,

            Tom Wescott

            Comment


            • A quick question for those more studid in the case than I:

              There was an unsolved murder before Emma Elizabeth Smith - perhaps as far back as 1887, though I cannot recall the details. This woman was found in a swamp? Or so I seem to remember. She was not mutilated. It seems to me she was actually dating her killer, or that was the impression I took from it; and she was seen with multiple men simultaneously the day of her death. I don't think her killer was ever caught.

              Does this ring any bells?
              Last edited by Defective Detective; 11-20-2014, 06:49 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                I voted on this poll eons ago. Sadly, I cannot remember who I voted for! If I could re-vote knowing what I know now, I'd likely vote Emily Horsnell, although I'll happily admit that 'I don't know'. Until very recently I thought there was a huge medical divide between Tabram and Nichols, so I accepted Nichols as the first Ripper victim. However, I now believe that the way the killer handled Nichols was actually very similar to what he did to Tabram and the two are therefore connected. Likewise, the medical evidence connects Tabram to Smith, and then Smith back to Horsnell.

                Yours truly,

                Tom Wescott
                Hi again Tom
                Can you please expound on your last sentence?
                "Is all that we see or seem
                but a dream within a dream?"

                -Edgar Allan Poe


                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                -Frederick G. Abberline

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Defective Detective View Post
                  A quick question for those more studid in the case than I:

                  There was an unsolved murder before Emma Elizabeth Smith - perhaps as far back as 1887, though I cannot recall the details. This woman was found in a swamp? Or so I seem to remember. She was not mutilated. It seems to me she was actually dating her killer, or that was the impression I took from it; and she was seen with multiple men simultaneously the day of her death. I don't think her killer was ever caught.

                  Does this ring any bells?
                  Yes, Annie Smith. I believe her first name is Elizabeth, but she went by Annie. I mention it in my book. Dr. Phillips was the coroner and was PISSED at the doctor because he did an autopsy without the coroner's approval. He told Phillips the reason was that the previous coroner allowed doctors the discretion to perform an autopsy if they thought it necessary. Phillips would have none of that and insisted autopsies only be performed at his order. I'm not sure it was a case of murder. They could not determine the cause of death. However, her body was found in a swampy area and there was no logical reason for her to have been walking through such an area.

                  Yours truly,

                  Tom Wescott

                  P.S. Just for trivia sake, Annie Chapman's maiden name was Smith.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                    Hi again Tom
                    Can you please expound on your last sentence?
                    Hi Abscam. I'm afraid that would be a very long post.

                    Yours truly,

                    Tom Wescott

                    Comment


                    • Yes, Annie Smith. That's it.

                      The reason I bring her up is that - and bear in mind I haven't read your book or any of the details of her case, so I might be getting them wrong - I thought there were some superficial echoes of the Emma Smith attack in her case, namely the (possibly misremembered) sighting of her with a gang of young men immediately before her death.

                      If we include Emma Smith and suggest the Ripper was among the gang that killed her, I would want to strongly consider Annie Smith as well. I'm agnostic on the possibility of Jack-as-gangster (I've half-jokingly posited the Ripper letters as Black Hand missives if you tilt your head and squint a little), but I wouldn't want to rule it out. And I think if you include Emma, you almost have to at least look at Annie Smith.
                      Last edited by Defective Detective; 11-20-2014, 10:56 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Defective Detective View Post
                        Yes, Annie Smith. That's it.

                        The reason I bring her up is that - and bear in mind I haven't read your book or any of the details of her case, so I might be getting them wrong - I thought there were some superficial echoes of the Emma Smith attack in her case, namely the (possibly misremembered) sighting of her with a gang of young men immediately before her death.

                        If we include Emma Smith and suggest the Ripper was among the gang that killed her, I would want to strongly consider Annie Smith as well. I'm agnostic on the possibility of Jack-as-gangster (I've half-jokingly posited the Ripper letters as Black Hand missives if you tilt your head and squint a little), but I wouldn't want to rule it out. And I think if you include Emma, you almost have to at least look at Annie Smith.
                        I read a bunch on Annie Smith in the papers of the time. I became both fascinated and confused. it appears she had a drinking problem. Some suggest she might have been poisoned during the evening, which is interesting. At one point a shop owner had to revive her. Then she went back dancing. A bit later, it appeared one of the boys around her stole or attempted to steal her wallet. However, because of her inebriation, she may have stumbled into the marshes and passed out, suffocating in the water. Consider a very similar case recently with the Long Island Serial Killer. A prostitute disappears. While looking for her body they find the graves of like 10 women! When they finally find the missing girl it turns out she wasn't even murdered. She was on drugs, ran out into a marsh, passed out and drown. Remarkable, but true. Having said that, there were a couple suspects in the Annie Smith case and their names should be kept on record. I seem to recall they were rather young though.

                        Yours truly,

                        Tom Wescott

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                          Hi Abscam. I'm afraid that would be a very long post.

                          Yours truly,

                          Tom Wescott
                          Well then, hopefully it will it be in your Legrand book ?

                          Can you at least clue me in on who horsnail was and why she could be a possible ripper victim, or at least point me in the right direction to read about her?
                          "Is all that we see or seem
                          but a dream within a dream?"

                          -Edgar Allan Poe


                          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                          -Frederick G. Abberline

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                            Hi Harry
                            The sigs were similar enough. Abdomen and private parts targeted with knife.

                            Signatures evolve.
                            Whoever murdered Nichols et al. was confident in his skill with a knife, that much is clear, whereas Tabram's killer was quite the opposite and didn't betray any particular expertise as he wildly stabbed her to death.

                            It's therefore hard to swallow that he refined his technique to this degree within a matter of weeks with no murders in between; as is the belief that Nichols couldn't have been the Ripper's first kill. He had to start somewhere, after all, and if he was a slaughterer or butcher then he would've already possessed the practical skill he needed, with the signature evolving with each kill but nonetheless still methodical and systematic in its approach. Tabram's murder has little in common with Nichols, Chapman & Eddowes in particular, which is why I believe that any attempt to add her to the "official list" is a tenuous one.

                            Comment


                            • At least we all agree that it wasn't Fairy Fay.
                              This my opinion and to the best of my knowledge, that is, if I'm not joking.

                              Stan Reid

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                                Whoever murdered Nichols et al. was confident in his skill with a knife, that much is clear, whereas Tabram's killer was quite the opposite and didn't betray any particular expertise as he wildly stabbed her to death.

                                It's therefore hard to swallow that he refined his technique to this degree within a matter of weeks with no murders in between; as is the belief that Nichols couldn't have been the Ripper's first kill. He had to start somewhere, after all, and if he was a slaughterer or butcher then he would've already possessed the practical skill he needed, with the signature evolving with each kill but nonetheless still methodical and systematic in its approach. Tabram's murder has little in common with Nichols, Chapman & Eddowes in particular, which is why I believe that any attempt to add her to the "official list" is a tenuous one.
                                Hi Harry
                                From an earlier post of mine-not sure if you saw it:

                                Well no...
                                Most serial killers don't start off with a successful kill let alone a mature MO.

                                I think its more likely in the space of a several months, starting with perhaps, Millwood and/or Wilson, he went from stabbing then to strangling first to incapacitate and stabbing with Tabram then to strangling and slashing with Nichols...and on.


                                So spelled out:

                                Millwood: stabbed, not strangled, did not kill
                                Tabram: strangled, then stabbed, killed
                                Polly Nichols: strangled, ripped, killed
                                etc.

                                And all three (and subsequent victims)had knife wounds to lower abdomen.

                                To me a reasonable progression of MO and sig evolving.
                                "Is all that we see or seem
                                but a dream within a dream?"

                                -Edgar Allan Poe


                                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                                -Frederick G. Abberline

                                Comment

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