Lets get Lechmere off the hook!

[Harriet the Student]

I watched the documentary on Cross yesterday, and found it quite interesting.

However there were big question marks that pinged up for me.

1 - I find it hard to imagine someone committing this type of murder on their way TO work. The nature of the murders implies a strong emotional element for their perpetrator, whether that is sexual arousement, aggression or even fear (of being caught). To then go off to do a day's work? Let alone the risk of being covered in blood - even if you work handling meat you would not normally start the day with fresh blood on you.

My thought too - it's not unknown for murderers to go about their daily business after committing terrible atrocities, but I didn't think he'd be likely to plan this murder on his way to work. The other way of looking at it would be that he was simply out late when he met Nichols, but would he be if he had work the next day?

Was there any evidence that Lechmere turned up for work after speaking to the police that morning?

[K-453]

2. Polly Nichols was more likely picked up from Whitechapel Road area and lured towards the murder location.

... or rather, she took the murderer to that location.

The same goes for the other victims! Picking up the Ripper at the main streets, and then taking him to some secluded spot.

Question: Would Cross walk through an ill-famed street like Dorset Street at 3.45 a.m. - even if that was on the shortest route to his work?

'nother thought: Did he fit the description Lavende gave of the suspect he saw in Church Passage? Or any other description of a suspect?


Investigating Cross' life might be interesting, even if he wasn't the Ripper. It would at least provide more insight into the every-day lifes of people back then, into the general background of the case.

[Scott Nelson]

I work with people who come in with blood all over themselves all the time.

[Robert]

"Question: Would Cross walk through an ill-famed street like Dorset Street at 3.45 a.m. - even if that was on the shortest route to his work?"

Hi K

If he was there at that time then he'd have been hard pushed not to be late for work!

[Djb]

The idea that Lechmere murdered women on his way to work surely doesn't fit with the times of the offences.
The Hanbury street murder was @6.00 am two hours after the time suggested for his start time.

[Chris]

The idea that Lechmere murdered women on his way to work surely doesn't fit with the times of the offences.
The Hanbury street murder was @6.00 am two hours after the time suggested for his start time.

I don't think the Lechmerians accept that time for Chapman's murder.

But on the facts of the case as generally accepted, the murder of Nichols is the only one that really fits the journey to work idea. It's obviously no good for the murders of Stride and Eddowes. And Kelly was murdered on the morning of the Lord Mayor's Show, which was a holiday in London. I doubt Cross/Lechmere would have been working that day.

[Djb]

my contention is that there is possibly a connection between the ripper and 25 Hanbury street. What seems to be over looked to me is that the murder of Annie Chapman was different. Nichols, stride, eddowes were all murdered in public space. Kelly was murdered in her bed. But it seems to me that the location of the chapman murder is significant. It isn't in public space. It isn't in a yard reached via a passage. Its the private back yard to a house in multiple occupation. To access the yard the killer and victim actually had to walk through the house with the risk of being challenged going in or out. My theory is that the killer knew the house and had been there before. There surely has to be some relationship between the killer and 25 hanbury street in order for him to be comfortable in that situation?

Is there any connection between Lechmere and 25 hanbury street.

I think that cat meat was sold from the ground floor of no25. If Lechmere was delivering meat that could be a link.

[pinkmoon]

my contention is that there is possibly a connection between the ripper and 25 Hanbury street. What seems to be over looked to me is that the murder of Annie Chapman was different. Nichols, stride, eddowes were all murdered in public space. Kelly was murdered in her bed. But it seems to me that the location of the chapman murder is significant. It isn't in public space. It isn't in a yard reached via a passage. Its the private back yard to a house in multiple occupation. To access the yard the killer and victim actually had to walk through the house with the risk of being challenged going in or out. My theory is that the killer knew the house and had been there before. There surely has to be some relationship between the killer and 25 hanbury street in order for him to be comfortable in that situation?

Is there any connection between Lechmere and 25 hanbury street.

I think that cat meat was sold from the ground floor of no25. If Lechmere was delivering meat that could be a link.

Good evening,there is every possibility that our killer was not local but ventured into Whitechapel where he came into the company of his victims who would know the best place to get some privacy .

[Djb]

29 (not 25 sorry) isn't public space.
There must be stable yards and alleys and hidden corners all over the place. But in this instance they entered a house, walked through the house, past the stairs and out of the back door into the private yard . Its a bizarre location to murder someone. There is only one way in and out.

[Jonathan H]

To Scott Nelson

Me too, and entrails.

Should I have been suspicious?

[Lechmere]

The day of the Lord Mayors parade was not a holiday in London

[RockySullivan]

my contention is that there is possibly a connection between the ripper and 25 Hanbury street. What seems to be over looked to me is that the murder of Annie Chapman was different. Nichols, stride, eddowes were all murdered in public space. Kelly was murdered in her bed. But it seems to me that the location of the chapman murder is significant. It isn't in public space. It isn't in a yard reached via a passage. Its the private back yard to a house in multiple occupation. To access the yard the killer and victim actually had to walk through the house with the risk of being challenged going in or out. My theory is that the killer knew the house and had been there before. There surely has to be some relationship between the killer and 25 hanbury street in order for him to be comfortable in that situation?

Is there any connection between Lechmere and 25 hanbury street.

I think that cat meat was sold from the ground floor of no25. If Lechmere was delivering meat that could be a link.

I agree with this!

[David Orsam]

I see a weakness in the case against Lechmere in the timing of events, something which is supposed to be a point in favour of him being the murderer.

In the documentary, it is stated that Paul met Lechmere at the scene of the crime at 3:46am. This is based on the fact that Paul gave evidence at the inquest that he left his home in Foster Street at "about quarter to 4". Based on Lechmere leaving his home at 3:30am and taking seven minutes to arrive in Buck's Row, at 3:37am, it is stated in the documentary that: "According to Paul's evidence, Lechmere found the body some 16 minutes after he claimed he left home". Given that Paul is shown entering Buck's Row at 3:45, I don't entirely understand why this then transmutes into 3:46 but I assume the point is that it took him 60 seconds to walk down Buck's Row to reach Lechmere. Consequently it is stated that there is a "9 minute gap" between the time Lechmere should have reached the body (3:37) and Paul's arrival (3:46). This is described as "a major gap in Lechmere's timings".

The entire argument is based on the assumption that Paul, being in a hurry to get to work, would have been keenly aware of the time. However, I would like to suggest that the person who would have been most aware of the exact time that morning was PC Mizen because he was waking people up. I don't suppose anyone who asked to be woken up at 3:45am would have appreciated being woken up any earlier. Mizen said at the inquest that he was approached by the two men at or about "a quarter to four". He then admitted that, having been told about the body in Buck's Row, he "finished knocking up one person". For me, this means that far from Paul arriving in Buck's Row at 3:45, this was actually the time that he and Lechmere spoke to Mizen in Hanbury Street.

While I appreciate that Lechmere only supposedly needs two minutes to murder Nichols according to the documentary, this change in timings rather undermines the whole point about the "major gap". Indeed, if Lechmere left his house at 3:30am, took seven minutes to walk to Buck's Row (3:37am), then it took a further minute for Paul to walk down Buck's Row (3:38am), then, say, three minutes for them to speak and look at the body and decide what to do (3:41am), then three minutes for them to locate a constable and explain what they had seen (3:44am) - then for Mizen to knock up (3:45am) before proceeding to Buck's Row - all the timings are pretty much accounted for and Lechmere had no time to murder Nichols. But even that assumes Lechmere left his house at exactly 3:30am as opposed to, say, 3:33am which most people would call 3:30.

[Rosella]

No 29 (and probably similar lodging houses) was known both to prostitutes and to vagrants as a place to shelter and to conduct business. JTR may or may not have been a local, I tend to think he was, but I believe Annie probably took him there.

Mrs Richardson, the sub-landlord at no 29, gave evidence at Chapman's inquest that a trespasser had been found about a month before the murders and had been told to go by Thompson, a fellow lodger. She later gave a statement to The Daily Telegraph on 8th or 9th September,

'The only possible clue that I can think of', she said, 'is that Mr Thompson's wife met a man about a month ago lying on the stairs, about four o' clock in the morning. He spoke with a foreign accent. When asked what he was doing there he replied that he was waiting to do a 'doss' before the market opened. He slept on the stairs that night, and I believe on other nights also.'

[Simon Owen]

29 (not 25 sorry) isn't public space.
There must be stable yards and alleys and hidden corners all over the place. But in this instance they entered a house, walked through the house, past the stairs and out of the back door into the private yard . Its a bizarre location to murder someone. There is only one way in and out.

IIRC the lock on the door was broken and so it was a place where prostitutes would commonly take their clients : some tools were stolen from the cellar so that's why John Richardson was checking up on the place.

The Chapman murder is strange also in that it is so much later than the other crimes : if Annie was killed before 5am where was the body ? If Annie had been killed after 5am , where had she been since 1.45am (and why had no-one seen her in that time ) ? And why did Jack wait so long to kill again between this murder and the ' Double Event ' ?