Lets get Lechmere off the hook!

[Tom_Wescott]

This is an easy one:

Paul would have noticed the blood encrusted on Cross' hand when he touched him, not to mention the likely faecal stench that would have attached to him from rooting about in Nichols' intestines.

You think the Ripper got his hands into Nichols' intestines?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Defective Detective]

I think he almost had to have done so: they were reported as poking through the wound before she was moved.

I don't know what it's like opening up a human by the abdominal cavity. I do know that you can smell faeces cutting open a deer, and that it lingers unpleasantly even if you never come into physical contact with it. The intestines stink of it.

[Amanda]

Guess what...

That would be interesting! Edward has however visited the Pickfords´ archives, and there are no longer any records of those days in existance. Getting access to the Pickfords archives is not something that is granted on an everyday basis either - they made a gracius exception for Edward.

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fisherman,

Have you ever heard the phrase 'seek and ye shall find'? Well, guess what? I found !
After only half an hour looking through census records for the Whitechapel area, I found a gentleman who worked in the Pickford's stables.
You might want to note that said gent lived in Hanbury Street.
So if you want me to believe that Lechmere was the only Pickford's employee living in Whitechapel and walking the C5 murder route, you'll have to get up a little earlier.
Amanda

[Sally]

Can we have details, Amanda? It may be that we have a new suspect here...

Seriously, it would be interesting to see. Maybe there are some more out there?

Good work

[Amanda]

Can we have details, Amanda? It may be that we have a new suspect here...

Seriously, it would be interesting to see. Maybe there are some more out there?

Good work

Hi Sally,
This guy was 52, so don't think it was him, ha ha!

For some reason I can't seem to paste the census page from my ipad on to here.

I'm certain there will be lots of Pickford's workers living in Whitechapel, it's just finding the time to dig them all out.
Maybe you want to have a look if you have a couple of hours free? I simply went into census for 1891 & 1881 - typed in various street names around Whitechapel and voila!
Amanda

[Fisherman]

Hi Fisherman,

Have you ever heard the phrase 'seek and ye shall find'? Well, guess what? I found !
After only half an hour looking through census records for the Whitechapel area, I found a gentleman who worked in the Pickford's stables.
You might want to note that said gent lived in Hanbury Street.
So if you want me to believe that Lechmere was the only Pickford's employee living in Whitechapel and walking the C5 murder route, you'll have to get up a little earlier.
Amanda

I am certain that there were more than one Pickfords employee living in Whitechapel, Amanda!

But think one step longer:

He would not have passed Buck´s Row on his route to work. That´s Nichols gone.

If he lived in Hanbury Street, he would not have used Old Montague Street to go to Pickfords. That´s Tabram gone.

Berner Street, how does he fit?

Mitre Square, how does he fit. Any ties?

Did he start his shift at 4 AM? Do we know?

You see, it tkaes alot to fit ALL the sites. Your man MAY fit one or two or none, depending on how far west he lived on Hanbury Street.

Please also note that Charles Lechmere met not a soul on his trek from Doveton Street to Buck´s Row that morning.

Paul met not a soul on his route from Foster Street.

Neil had been round to Bucks Row at around 3.15, and he returned at 3.45. He said that he had not seen a soul on either occasion. The area was seemingly totally deserted.

To me, that does not tell me that there was a smallish army of Pickfords men passing the murder spot. It says that there was just the one - and another carman, Robert Paul, working in Corbett´s Court.

I still think it is an interesting suggestion you´ve made, and I would absolutely love it if we had all the Pickfords men´s morning trek routes on record. I don´t Think, however, that it would help Lechmere - I think it would rule the others out more or less totally. To fit the bill, they must to begin with have lived east of Buck´s Row, and they must have used it as a thoroughfare to Pickfords. Nobody passing that area to the North of Buck´s Row would have made use of Old Montague Street, and nobody passing it to the South would have walked Hanbury Street, logically.

I think we would be left with very few men - perhaps one only. Lechmeres move to Doveton Street made an already longish trek even longer, and I Think that it will be a fair guess that those who worked at Pickfords and lived to the East of it rarely lived that far away from the depot.

But I am grateful if you or anybody else can dig up examples of men who lived east of Buck´s Row, and worked at a Place that meant that they would have equally good use of Hanbury Street and Old Montague Street!

All the best,
Fisherman

[Chris]

Mitre Square, how does he fit. Any ties?

Since you ask, how does Cross/Lechmere fit in with Mitre Square?

[Fisherman]

I think he almost had to have done so: they were reported as poking through the wound before she was moved.

I don't know what it's like opening up a human by the abdominal cavity. I do know that you can smell faeces cutting open a deer, and that it lingers unpleasantly even if you never come into physical contact with it. The intestines stink of it.

You are not supposed to cut the colon of the deer, DD - only inexperienced hunters do that.
The forensic pathologist in the documentary says that the killer would likely not have much blood -if any at all! - on him. I concur with that, since it seems to me that he never got the time to rummage around inside Nichols. Otherwise, there would likely have been organs missing.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Here we go, as promised!

Bitsie: Not really what you asked for but here are some questions and things I'd like clearer information on:

1) Why would Lechmere give the name Cross and not lie about his whole name?

To minimize the risk that the police would look upon him as a potential killer if they checked him. That´s also why he used "Cross" - he once had a stepfather by that name, so he could tell the police - if they checked him - that he called himself Cross every now and then to honour his dead stepfather (who was a policeman, b t w).

2) Why did the murders stop? or Evidence that they didn't.

There are many unsloved murders in London that may have been Lechmere. There are examples of serialists that have stopped. It is - and has to remain - an open question.

3) Motive/Psychology - any idea what happened with his family?

He had no biological father to grow up alongside. I think he had a domineering mother, as is many times the case with serialists. A daughter of his stayed with that mother. He married an illiterate woman, and psychopaths have a tendency to team up with people they feel they can domineer.

4) How do we know for sure that there was no blood at the scene when Paul arrived?

For sure? We don´t. But we do know that the blood eventually ran down into the gutter, and I Think that there would have been a very good chance that Paul would have noticed that, since blood is a fluid, and fluid reflects light.

5) How do we know for sure how long it would take for blood to flow?

Once again, there can never be any certainty. But we can conclude that there was no arterial spray recorded, so what blood there was seems to have trickled out.

6) If Lechmere was innocent how soon before he arrived would the killer have had to have left the scene.

That´s another unknown. But it is known that none of the watchmen or policemen in the surrounding area had anything to say about having observed anybody coming or going to or from Buck´s Row.

7) Did Paul speak to Mizen? Are you saying he didn't? (in the other thread)

In his paper interview, Paul says he spoke to Mizen. But he generally "bigs up" is role, so it is very hard to say what is true and what is not true. He leaves out Lechmere of his story totally aftger having left Buck´s Row, and takes the honour of having walked to and contacted Mizen himself.

In his testimony at the inquest, Lechmere says that both he and Paul spoke to Mizen.

But Mizen says that one man spoke to him, and the coroner has to ask him if that man was alone before Mizen remembers to mention that there was another man involved.

My contention is that Lechmere saw to it that Paul was not within earshot as he lied to Mizen. That is to some degree cooroborated by the Echo, in which Mizen is referred to as saying about Paul: "The other man, who went down Hanbury Street ..."

Cheers!

P.S Isn't burden of proof a lovely get out of jail free card? It's a discussion group isn't it? Not a court. Sheesh!

It´s discussion group, yes. And we should all be here on equal terms.

The best,
Fisherman

[Matty]

I have no strong feelings for or against the man as a suspect, it could have been him, but it could have been hundreds of other, he’s more likely than PAV or any of the other crackpot ideas but no more likely than say Hutchinson or Kosminsky.

For me the main problems are.

• There is no evidence at all against him.
• He made himself know and available to the authorities.
• There is likelihood that the police at the time would have looked into and dismissed him as a suspect.
• His route to work was no more suspicious than potentially hundreds of other local men.
• If, for example any one of the the Long, Lawende or Schwartz siting’s are to be believed, for a killer who knew he had been seen once already he was awfully sloppy about where he killed and who saw him with victims in subsequent murders.
• His job would not mean he would have been COVERED in blood, there is little or no blood in butchered meat there is some serum which looks very different to arterial blood stains.
• The killings stopped, he lived on for many years.

[Fisherman]

Hi Fisherman,
Appreciate your response. I take it Pickford's do have archives then? Just conveniently not records from 1888.....

Amanda

Conveniently...? It is not just 1888 that is missing - and it´s no odd thing. My old newspaper have archives too. The paper has been around since 1848, but the archives begin in the nineteentwenties.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Since you ask, how does Cross/Lechmere fit in with Mitre Square?

If he killed Stride, then his working route for many years when walking to Broad Street from James Street, would have taken him directly to the Mitre Square area.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

I have no strong feelings for or against the man as a suspect, it could have been him, but it could have been hundreds of other, he’s more likely than PAV or any of the other crackpot ideas but no more likely than say Hutchinson or Kosminsky.

For me the main problems are.

• There is no evidence at all against him.
• He made himself know and available to the authorities.
• There is likelihood that the police at the time would have looked into and dismissed him as a suspect.
• His route to work was no more suspicious than potentially hundreds of other local men.
• If, for example any one of the the Long, Lawende or Schwartz siting’s are to be believed, for a killer who knew he had been seen once already he was awfully sloppy about where he killed and who saw him with victims in subsequent murders.
• His job would not mean he would have been COVERED in blood, there is little or no blood in butchered meat there is some serum which looks very different to arterial blood stains.
• The killings stopped, he lived on for many years.

Thanks for the contribution, Matty!

The best,
Fisherman

[Chris]

If he killed Stride, then his working route for many years when walking to Broad Street from James Street, would have taken him directly to the Mitre Square area.

So the connection is simply that he would know the area well?

[Fisherman]

So the connection is simply that he would know the area well?

The connection is precisely what I said it was - walking the closest way from Berner Street to Mitre Square, would be using his old working trek from James Street to Broad street.

The killer would hav had multiple choices for what route to take after Berner Street, but he chose the route Lechmere had walked for many years of a daily basis, and which he knew intimately.

It impresses me.