Elizabeth Stride ..who killed her ?

[lynn cates]

BS again

Hello Jon. I know what you mean. Would the story were from elsewhere.

Still, I don't buy the tale for other reasons; but, if I did, BS man would be the slayer.

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

but it definitely looks like two men working together and it always has done, this is highly suspicious with regards to Tabram as well, the evidence of another other man being present does not exist with any of the other murders BUT maybe it does .

it's highly unlikely that JTR would dress as a flashy wide boy Jew to commit murder, it is too LOUD for Whitechapel and thus he's drawing too much attention to himself, especially if he's been cruising his Turf dressed like that for the last 2 hours, but there is also no need for JTR to change his clothing to a Sailor boy too !

i'm sensing something strange here and i have done for some time now.

i think LA DE DA could be one of these guys dressed up yet again, and the other guy is someone called GH.

GH waits outside, while his friend is inside mutilating her, he wanted to blame a flashy Jew, but he could not guarantee being able to fit someone up, so he maybe simply got his friend to dress up like one.... this LA DE DA wasn't seen by anyone else between 2 and 3am, yes and this is the only mistake he made.

so only he could describe his friend, nobody else too, this is not what he wanted, because this is exactly why the other guy dressed up, but it's good enough.....

i doubt this happened, it's simply too crazy and a waste of time, but it's worth mentioning....

it's far easier to simply lie, because the only guarantee that GH needs, is that there was nobody in this area from 1.55 to 2.10am.

GH only needs to hear M.Kelly singing earlier on and that's it, she's as good as dead, all he now needs to do is to be patient and continually visit/ lurk around outside.

tonight is different, he's looking for someone to kill inside only..... outside is no longer any good for him, he's after her heart and a far worst mutilation, he's therefore resigned to waiting a long time, it's no good him loosing his temper like he did with Stride.

he's having trouble finding someone and it looks like he did last week too, then all of a sudden whilst walking down Dorset st, he hears a young drunk girl singing, this indeed is music to his ears !

GH waited around and broke in at 4am.

[Bridewell]

The Embellishing Star

Hello Bridewell. Does it ever feel like "The Star" is embellishing matters just a bit? I've seem many complaints on the boards about that.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I often feel that the Star is embellishing matters, but here there seems to be very little to embellish, and clearly the language difficulty didn't help. The knife may be an embellishment, or it may be that, on reflection, IS felt a need to justify running away, and so invented it himself. I don't see why the Star would alter the identity of the man who shouted the warning, as it seems to serve no purpose. It's slightly frustrating not to be able to vote for Jack and BS in the poll, as that's who I think was responsible. Pipeman as an accomplice is possible, but unlikely in my view. There are several alternatives:
would-be rescuer / irate pimp / even a policeman in plain clothes standing well back in pub doorway & quietly observing perhaps?

It's Jack aka BS man for me.

[lynn cates]

skewed

Hello Bridewell. Perhaps I should have said skewed.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

I don't agree that the Star should take the blame for this. What was their motive? They actually had an amazing scoop, as we now know - the only paper to interview the key witness in the Stride investigation. The story was fully sensational enough without any embellishments, but what do they do? Bury it in the back pages, and the editor of the paper himself says the Hungarian's story is 'a priori incredible' and dismisses it. That's because the story HE read was the one that was published, and this is likely the story that the reporter got directly from Schwartz. Therefore, it's not the Star newspaper at fault here, but the reporter, the interpreter, or Schwartz himself. Another possibility, as I've suggested before, is that the police planted the story in the paper, as they were often known to do.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

motive

Hello Tom. Are you suggesting that the IS story is entirely a police fabrication? That never occurred to me. Not sure about motive. If Wess, et al, devised it, the motive is simple.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm suggesting the possibility that the police fed the Star this report to draw a witness out, probably Pipeman, but maybe BS Man. What I DO NOT believe happened is that the Star newspaper itself intentionally muddled the store to make it more sensational. I think the evidence as I noted proves otherwise.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[SirJohnFalstaff]

I think it was all an accident. Stride had a violent allergic reaction to cachous, some good samaritan tried a tracheotomy so she could breathe again but went too far. He left the area to avoid bad publicity for his barber shop.

[Scott Nelson]

I think it was all an accident. Stride had a violent allergic reaction to cachous, some good samaritan tried a tracheotomy so she could breathe again but went too far. He left the area to avoid bad publicity for his barber shop.

Oh!! What about the master baker shop at 70 Berner Street? Did the good Samaritan repent as his or her actions weren't sufficient?

I think your scenario is entirely plausible.

[Harry D]

No votes for Pipeman. Could it be because him and JTR were one and the same?

If the Ripper was not disturbed during the Stride attack, the lack of mutilations can still be accounted for if we consider that the Ripper was an opportunistic and compulsive killer. Perhaps he had not intended to strike when he did, but the chance presented itself and served as a warm-up to the main event that night (Eddowes). To me, even this is an easier and simpler explanation to accept than a second slasher operating less than hour before the Ripper did.

[GUT]

G'day Harry

If the Ripper was not disturbed during the Stride attack, the lack of mutilations can still be accounted for if we consider that the Ripper was an opportunistic and compulsive killer.

This is circular reasoning I'm sorry.

Stride might have less injuries if Jack was an opportunistic killer.

Stride had limited injuries, thus:

Jack was an opportunistic killer.

We actually have no idea if he was an opportunistic killer or not, he MAY have been or he may have had other motivations or Stride MAY have been killed by someone else or he MAY have been disturbed, on the evidence we have persuasive argument can be made for all three scenarios.

[Harry D]

Greetings, GUT.

This is circular reasoning I'm sorry.

Stride might have less injuries if Jack was an opportunistic killer.

Stride had limited injuries, thus:

Jack was an opportunistic killer.

My belief in Jack's opportunism does not rest on Stride alone.

We actually have no idea if he was an opportunistic killer or not, he MAY have been or he may have had other motivations or Stride MAY have been killed by someone else or he MAY have been disturbed, on the evidence we have persuasive argument can be made for all three scenarios.

There's plenty to suggest to that the killings were opportunistic in nature. As we can determine no golden thread that ties the victims to each other or to a particular suspect, they must have been the random targets of a killer stalking the streets for a particular class of women. I don't believe the killer planned much further ahead than that. If Stride wasn't soliciting that night, it shouldn't rule her out, because the victims weren't killed for their trade, only that it made them easy targets. I don't believe that Broad Shoulders Man was Stride's killer, or the Ripper, he wouldn't have been that conspicuous for starters, which in my view means that he must've left Stride after their little altercation, at which point the Ripper moved in while Stride was still shaken and gave her a 'helping' hand.

In all probability, what are the chances of two throat-slashings happening on the streets within that proximity of time. It's certainly conceivable but not at all likely in my unprofessional opinion.

[Bridewell]

In all probability, what are the chances of two throat-slashings happening on the streets within that proximity of time. It's certainly conceivable but not at all likely in my unprofessional opinion.

I know what you're saying but I'm not sure that it works. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the Stride murder occurred at 12.50am. The odds of another throat-cut murder (by a second killer) occurring in Mitre Square are not increased or reduced by the occurrence of an earlier murder in Berner Street.

With two different killers, the two events would be entirely unconnected and so the chances of a Mitre Square murder at (again for the sake of argument) 1.38am the same night are as great/small as at any other time. A lot of murders happen in the small hours of the morning. Coincidences are sometimes just that.

[GUT]

G'day Harry

As we can determine no golden thread that ties the victims to each other or to a particular suspect, they must have been the random targets of a killer stalking the streets for a particular class of women.

One, at least plausible, thread could be that at various times he was a client of each of them, part time prostitutes working the streets in the same geographical area, it's really not a stretch that they had clients in common.

Personally I think that they were most probably just in the wrong place at the wrong time, just that we don't KNOW that as a fact and their are other possibilities.

[Michael W Richards]

The opportunistic theory is well and oft used, because it attempts to explain why these particular women and were they strangers to him? At this juncture its impossible to state with any certainty that opportunism played a pivotal role in any of the Canonicals murders...excluding the first 2. There is witness evidence that suggests both of these 2 women were actively seeking money for their bed that same night by prostituting themselves, which would mean that their killer most probably met them while posing as a client. The fact that both were to some degree compromised by their health...Annie by her cold or flu, and Polly by the booze...seems to suggest that they may have been chosen, at least in part, because of that lessened state of awareness. The opportunity arose.

With Elisabeth Stride, the woman who had been working among the Jews for weeks prior to the night she is killed, is sober, nicely dressed with a flower arrangement on her jacket, and cachous clutched in her hand. Although we have several men interacting with Liz throughout that night it appears that none of them suggested she was "available" for hire, that they hired her that night, or that she was looking for customers at 12:35am outside a club that had the vast majority of attendees that night leave the premises between 11:30pm and 12:30am. The street was almost empty at the time she is seen there.

So all we can say about Liz's murderer is that he didn't seem to acquire her in the same manner as the killer acquired the first 2 Canonicals, and that the trademark Ripper signature of the double throat cut and post mortem cuts into the abdomen are not present.

Cheers