Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[RockySullivan]

Round and round the mulberry bush.

Fraud involves deliberate fabrication of evidence. DNA fraud requires fabrication of scientific evidence that few people would know how to do.

I cannot, for one moment, imagine that Jari Louhelainen and his scientific colleagues would get involved in that. Yes, I know some scientists have done it before and when they've been found out their reputations have gone down the gurgler.

This job, for Jari and co., was just a sideshow to their main activity. It makes zero sense that they'd deliberately fabricate something.

Even Edwards seems an unlikely fraudster to me - naïve, excitable, eye on the main chance - all of those and more. But he just doesn't seem bright enough to me to put all this together.

No, we are much better off avoiding the F word and concentrating on the much more obvious avenues, namely, Edwards's research is poor (or non-existant); his interpretation of evidence worse; and the scientific evidence is not fully known yet.

the fraud is not that they fabricated the DNA Results...the fraud is they fabricated what the DNA results mean....so far as I can tell....the DNA results in no way conclusively prove that Koz is the Ripper...yet edwards claims just that...hence you have the fraud.

[Errata]

So I just now noticed this, but I think the blood is in the wrong place. Like if the center front of her bodice was soaked in blood but not the back neckline. Blood makes sense, bloody clothing makes sense, bloody center of the bodice with no corresponding wound requires some explanation.

And because there has been some discussion of this "table runner" style, yeah it looks like a table runner. This particular style is usually not called a shawl, though it is clearly more of a shawl than a scarf. If you were to try and google similar looking things you would probably use "stole" or "wrap". Which are types of shawls, but... it's like the difference between socks and hose is more in your soul than in the design, but people looking for hose are probably looking for dress socks. The difference between a shawl and a stole is in your soul, but for communicating this specific style you probably want to say "stole".

[pinkmoon]

Stating The Bleeding Obvious

Time to say the same thing again this shawl was not taken from any of the murder scenes in fact a lot of people date it's manufacture years after the murders SO HOW CAN IT CONTAIN ANY D.N.A FROM EDDOWES OR KOSMINSKI???????????the d.n.a must have come into contact with the shawl years after the murders.

[mickreed]

the fraud is not that they fabricated the DNA Results...the fraud is they fabricated what the DNA results mean....so far as I can tell....the DNA results in no way conclusively prove that Koz is the Ripper...yet edwards claims just that...hence you have the fraud.

No, RockyS, that's not fraud. That's just bad use of evidence.

However, I think I know where you're headed - the book is iffy, and I doubt that you're wrong there.

[Theagenes]

So I just now noticed this, but I think the blood is in the wrong place. Like if the center front of her bodice was soaked in blood but not the back neckline. Blood makes sense, bloody clothing makes sense, bloody center of the bodice with no corresponding wound requires some explanation.

And because there has been some discussion of this "table runner" style, yeah it looks like a table runner. This particular style is usually not called a shawl, though it is clearly more of a shawl than a scarf. If you were to try and google similar looking things you would probably use "stole" or "wrap". Which are types of shawls, but... it's like the difference between socks and hose is more in your soul than in the design, but people looking for hose are probably looking for dress socks. The difference between a shawl and a stole is in your soul, but for communicating this specific style you probably want to say "stole".

In doing some online research, people that sell vintage shawls seem to refer to this type as a "long shawl" as opposed to the square-shaped shawls that are more common. Whether this is technically correct or not, I have no idea but it seems to be a common usage among "shawl people." I've seen it suggested by someone else here that it should be more properly referred to as a "stole" but I don't know if that's accurate either.

[RockySullivan]

No, RockyS, that's not fraud. That's just bad use of evidence.

However, I think I know where you're headed - the book is iffy, and I doubt that you're wrong there.

I guess a better word than fraud would be con. It's a con on the public. the conman find dna tests generic enough to not prove anything either way...yet because he uses the word DNA he's able to con the blind/deaf/dumb public into thinking he's solved the ripper case with "DNA proof".

[MrBarnett]

In doing some online research, people that sell vintage shawls seem to refer to this type as a "long shawl" as opposed to the square-shaped shawls that are more common. Whether this is technically correct or not, I have no idea but it seems to be a common usage among "shawl people." I've seen it suggested by someone else here that it should be more properly referred to as a "stole" but I don't know if that's accurate either.

I may be wrong, but stole and wrap have a bit of a transatlantic twang to me.

But surely it's classification, and even it's original purpose, are not particularly important.

All I would like to know is, was it in existence in 1888 and how good is the DNA match to Eddowes and Kos ?

I don't believe for a minute it was taken by Amos Simpson, with permission , from Mitre Square.

MrB

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Rocky,

I wonder how many secluded spots were used by prostitutes in the LVP East End. Hundreds at least, possibly thousands. Did Jack survey them all, stop watch and notebook in hand, before he launched his career?

Or did he just have a quick look in both directions before whipping out the knife?

The idea of a geographically omniscient Jack strikes me as the last vestige of Jack the Myth. We've got rid of the top hat and silk lined cape, why not ditch this nonsense?

MrB

I don't understand. I all happened within one square mile. If you believe JtR was of the area, it's not a stretch.

[pinkmoon]

Sounds more like jack the rip off than jack the ripper to me.

[lynn cates]

novel idea

Hello Jason. Thanks.

I read the sequel--"Revenge of the Black Cat."

Cheers.
LC

[pinkmoon]

Hello Jason. Thanks.

I read the sequel--"Revenge of the Black Cat."

Cheers.
LC

What about his early book writen under a puesdonoum it's a classic it's called rusty bed springs by I.p.nightly

[lynn cates]

book club

Hello Jason. Thanks.

Prefer his distance Russian cousin's book:

"Diary of the Angriest Man in all Russia" by I M Pistov.

Cheers.
LC

[Peter Griffith aka gryff]

The NMR analysis determined that the dye was natural and made from woad (Asatis tinctoria).

The blue dye then would be indigo. Link

Natural indigo production in 1897 was 19,000 tons but declined to 1,000 tons by 1914.

The first synthesis of indigo was described by Adolf von Baeyer in 1878 (from isatin) and a second synthesis in 1880 (from 2-nitrobenzaldehyde). However, a "a commercially feasible manufacturing process" was not established until 1897.

So while the shawl could have been produced prior to the JTR murders, that natural dye was still being used in 1897 and since Link

cheers, gryff

[wolfie1]

I may be wrong, but stole and wrap have a bit of a transatlantic twang to me.

But surely it's classification, and even it's original purpose, are not particularly important.

All I would like to know is, was it in existence in 1888 and how good is the DNA match to Eddowes and Kos ?

I don't believe for a minute it was taken by Amos Simpson, with permission , from Mitre Square.

MrB

Google Georgian portraits and a Stole/Wrap is often draped across a ladies person, either slung over one arm with the end over a chair arm, with the back of the wrap falling loosely at the rear. Does this not demonstrate that the style of wrap , rectangular in shape, was in fashion even prior to Victorian times.
Dismissing the item in question due to its shape ,as it is not a triangular shawl, is a false assumption in my book. I make no firm judgments on the item in question as I am not an expert of dating material.
Simply commenting that the shape, was in fashion pre Victorian times.

[wolfie1]

Hello Jason. Thanks.

Prefer his distance Russian cousin's book:

"Diary of the Angriest Man in all Russia" by I M Pistov.

Cheers.
LC